Mr. EISENBERG. Have you heard anything about the dependability of the
Italian-made ammunition, unreloaded?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not as such.
However, I have experienced the examination of Italian ammunition of
various years of manufacture and, of course, various makes. And I think
it is rather poor quality in this particular caliber, primarily due to
the very short seating depth to which bullets of this type are seated
in the cartridge, which causes the bullets to loosen very readily in
the cartridge case even before they are loaded into a clip or fired.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you notice, Mr. Frazier, in your examination of
targets and so forth, whether there was any marked degree of yaw or
tumbling by the bullets?
Mr. FRAZIER. No evidence at all of tumbling or yaw.
Mr. EISENBERG. In your opinion, would the firing of 60 shots materially
affect the microscopic characteristics of Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would change them, if not completely, practically
completely.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, some witnesses to the assassination
have stated that they heard more than three shots. Can you think of
any reason why they might have come to that conclusion--in terms of
acoustical properties of high-velocity bullets?
Mr. FRAZIER. They could very readily have heard other sounds which
could be confused with shots. It is apparent--it is obvious with any
weapon in which the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound,
which is 1,127, approximately, feet per second, the bullet itself will
cause a shock wave or a sound wave, and a person standing in front
of that weapon will hear the report of the bullet passing and then
subsequently the sound will reach them of the cartridge explosion,
which could very easily be confused with two shots. There will be the
crack of the bullet going by, overhead or in the vicinity, and then the
sound of the shot.
So that you would hear for three shots actually six reports, which
could have caused some confusion.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a bullet in a pill box which
is marked Q-188. I ask you whether you are familiar with this bullet.
I would like to state for the record that this bullet was found in the
Walker residence after the attempted assassination of General Walker.
Mr. McCLOY. As far as you know, we have no proof of that yet?
Mr. EISENBERG. That is right.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am familiar with it. I have made an examination of
that bullet.
With reference to this bullet, I could furnish everything except the
weight of it.
Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Just taking one thing at a time. You are
familiar with it. Does it have your marking on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as 573?
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 573, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. When did you receive this bullet, do you recall, Mr.
Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. I would need to refer to my notes for that.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you supply that for us at a subsequent time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the weight.
Is this bullet in the same condition as it was when you received it in
the laboratory, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you clean it up or in any way alter it when you
received it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet to determine
whether it was or might have been fired in Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. And what was your conclusion?
Mr. FRAZIER. I was unable to reach a conclusion as to whether or
not it had been fired from this rifle. The conclusion went slightly
further than that, in that we determined that the general rifling
characteristics of the rifle 139 are of the same type as those found
on the bullet, Exhibit 573, and, further, on this basis, that the
bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land
and groove impressions. And, second, that all of the remaining physical
characteristics of this bullet, 573, are the same as Western 6.5mm.
Mannlicher-Carcano bullets of the type normally loaded in ammunition
made for this rifle, 139. However, the mutilation of the nose of the
bullet has eliminated the length characteristics, and it cannot be
definitely stated that Exhibit 573 is in fact a Western Cartridge
Co. product, but all of the remaining characteristics of base shape,
distance from the base to the cannelure, the width of the cannelure,
and the overall appearance, coloration, and so forth, are similar to
Western ammunition.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is this a jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a copper-alloy jacketed bullet having a lead
core.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you think of any reason why someone might have
called this a steel-jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to
rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact
just have a copper-alloy jacket.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the general rifling characteristics
which you referred to?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. They consist of impressions from four lands and
grooves. The bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. However,
it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four
groove impressions originally on this bullet.
The width of the land impression is 7/100ths of an inch, that is 0.07
inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is 0.13 inch, or
13/100ths of an inch.
The bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its
diameter. However, by adding the land width to the groove width, and
multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the
circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter,
which in this case corresponds to 6.5 mm. ammunition, or approximately
.267 inch.
Mr. EISENBERG. What was the direction of the twist?
Mr. FRAZIER. To the right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate how many types of rifle would
produce, on a 6.5 mm. bullet, four lands and four grooves, right
twist, with the width of lands and grooves which you established as
being those on this bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Only from experience, I could say that it would be
relatively few which would agree with all of those characteristics. I
have, of course, not seen or measured all of the foreign rifles, and
therefore I could not estimate the number that there might be.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you find any miscroscopic characteristics or other
evidence which would indicate that the bullet was not fired from 139?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Were you able to determine the depth of the grooves of
the bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet, 573, had what appeared to be normal-depth
grooves.
However, this bullet is completely flattened due to hitting a plaster
or cement or other hard material on one side, and the opposite side,
as a result of the flattening--has assumed a concave appearance, which
has stretched the surface in various places and changes its overall
appearance--that is the basis for actually having to state that there
were not enough unmutilated marks for identification purposes on it.
Mr. EISENBERG. But you do conclude that this was fired from
a Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38, or a rifle with similar barrel
characteristics?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, do you have any further questions on this?
Mr. McCLOY. When you say you were able to determine it was fired from
this type of rifle or one similar to it, that would include a number of
different kinds of rifles besides the Mannlicher-Carcano?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it could include a variety of weapons with which
I am not familiar in the foreign field.
Mr. McCLOY. But it is definitely, according to your best judgment, a
6.5 mm. bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And the bullet, such as we find it, has now characteristics
similar to the type of bullet which was our Exhibit No. 399?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it does. Placing them side by side, the cannelure,
which is really the only physical characteristic apparent, comes to
exactly the same place on both 399 and 573, indicating that this bullet
was loaded to exactly the same depth in the cartridge--the two bullets,
both 399 and 573.
Mr. McCLOY. I think I have no further questions.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, did any other firearms experts in the FBI
laboratory examine the three cartridge cases, the bullet, and the two
bullet fragments which you have testified as to today?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, all of the actual firearms comparisons were also made
by Charles Killion and Cortlandt Cunningham. These examinations were
made separately, that is, they made their examination individually
and separately from mine, and there was no association between their
examination and mine until both were finished.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did the three of you come to the conclusions which you
have given us today as your own conclusions?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did anyone in the FBI laboratory who examined the
evidence come to a different conclusion as to any of the evidence you
have discussed today?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is there anything you would like to add to your
testimony, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. Not with reference to this material, no.