Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me just a second, Mr. Frazier.
Were these diagrams prepared by you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the
figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I introduce these diagrams as
Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and 547?
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 546 and
547, and were received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us the results of your tests by using
these diagrams, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
In this test, Commission Exhibit 546, the diagram illustrates the
positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being
extracted and ejected from the rifle, Commission's Exhibit 139. In
the top portion of Exhibit 546, the barrel was held depressed at a
45-degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the
pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. Each spot marked
with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in
both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle
to which the cartridge case was ejected.
With the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge
cases landed within an 85-inch circle located 80 degrees to the right
front of the rifle. That may be confusing. It was 80 degrees to the
right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of 86
inches from the ejection port.
Now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases
ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by
the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt
is operated. A very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge
case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. However, under normal
conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the
cartridge cases to land in this circle.
The same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the
horizontal condition.
All of the cartridge cases landed within a 47-inch circle, which was
located at right angles to the ejection port, or 90 degrees from the
line of sight, and at a distance 80 inches from the ejection port.
In both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held 32
inches above the floor.
In the second test performed, Commission Exhibit 547, the test was made
to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would
fly as it was being ejected.
After ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel
held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases
did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. And
with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed 12 inches above
the level of the ejection port.
Mr. EISENBERG. In making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal
degree of rifle pull?
Mr. FRAZIER. It was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the
effect would be with different speeds of the bolt.
Mr. EISENBERG. How did you select the distance above the floor at which
the rifle was fired?
Mr. FRAZIER. We selected a distance which we thought might be typical
of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection
pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly
how the weapon had been fired previously. Thirty-two inches happened to
be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of
the weapon readily.
Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you three Commission Exhibits, 510, 511, and
512, which are photographs which have been identified as giving the
location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--Nos. 543, 544, and 545,
on the sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. I ask you
to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had
been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the
cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to
determine the ejection patterns.
Mr. FRAZIER. I would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge
cases are--two of them--against the wall. There is a stack of boxes
fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could
very well have been affected by the boxes. That is, they could strike
the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back
and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown
in the photographs.
Mr. EISENBERG. In making your tests, did you notice much ricochet?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; considerable. Each time a cartridge case hit the
floor, it would bounce anywhere from 8 inches to 10 to 15 feet.
Mr. McCLOY. Make a lot of noise?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; a clatter.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you tested Commission Exhibit 139 to determine its
accuracy under rapid-fire conditions?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I have.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these tests?
Mr. FRAZIER. A series of three tests were made. When we first received
the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so
we tested it at short range. After we had obtained sample bullets and
cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it.
Three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same
time.
The first tests were made at 15 yards, and shooting at a silhouette
target.
Mr. EISENBERG. A silhouette of a man?
Mr. FRAZIER. A paper silhouette target of a man; yes.
Possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them.
Mr. EISENBERG. These targets were made by you or in your presence?
Mr. FRAZIER. These are actually copies of the actual targets. I have
the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. However, the
markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I request permission to introduce the
copies for the reasons given, as Commission Exhibits 548 and 549.
Mr. McCLOY. You have made these copies, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I had them made. They are actual xerox copies of the
original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed
around the holes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McCLOY. Back on the record.
Mr. Frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this
experiment.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you one of the three that fired?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Can you identify your target as distinguished from the
other two?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you have the target that you fired?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fired--yes, I do. However, another examiner also fired
at this same target.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of
that target to be made?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And you have that with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I do.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you marked it yet?
Mr. EISENBERG. No. That would be 548.
Mr. McCLOY. Suppose you identify that copy.
Mr. EISENBERG. This copy that you are presenting to us has initials at
the bottom "CC-R-CK"?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the numbers and letters D-2 on the right-hand margin?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And that has been copied under your supervision?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. McCLOY. That can be admitted as Commission Exhibit 548.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 548, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Now, is Commission Exhibit 548 an accurate copy of the
target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it is.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, you also have a copy here which has the name on
it Killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other
target. Is this an accurate copy which you had prepared?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was the target fired by Charles Killion in
my presence.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have this admitted as 549?
Mr. McCLOY. It may be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 549, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr.
Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine
actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly
familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the
accuracy of the weapon under those conditions.
Mr. EISENBERG. And could you give us the names of the three agents who
participated?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and
myself.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the date?
Mr. FRAZIER. November 27, 1963.
Mr. EISENBERG. How many shots did each agent fire?
Mr. FRAZIER. Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired
three.
Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the times within which each agent fired
the three shots?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds,
and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on
Commission Exhibit No. 549.
Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds
was seven.
Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you at a later date confirm the exact time?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if
you happen to come back by oral testimony?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And your time, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots,
which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is
Exhibit 548.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on
the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No.
549, approximately 2-1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the
area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three
shots.
On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots
were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and
were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of
the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were--landed in a
three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's
shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the
aiming point.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe the second series of tests?
Mr. FRAZIER. The second test which was performed was two series of
three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these
tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine
how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose
accuracy.
We did not attempt--I did not attempt to maintain in that test an
accurate rate of fire.
This is the actual target which I fired.
Mr. EISENBERG. And that target has all six holes in it?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes
being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550.
Mr. McCLOY. That will be admitted.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the
two series?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were
approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the
right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These
three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots
landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5
inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches.
That series was fired in 4.6 seconds.
Mr. EISENBERG. And do you have the date?
Mr. FRAZIER. That also was on the 27th of November.
Mr. EISENBERG. Same date as the first tests?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. And you performed one more test, I believe?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the
range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And I have the
four targets we fired here.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552,
553, and 554.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551
through 554, and received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. I fired them.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four
targets?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches
high and within a 3-1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally
across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on
March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9
seconds.
The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three
shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4-1/2 to
5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of
the aiming point.
Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of
three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2-1/2 inches
high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point.
These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds.
And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5
seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the
right of the aiming point, all within a 3-1/2-inch circle.
Mr. McCLOY. The first one is not exactly 5 inches to the right, is it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. The center of the circle in which they all landed
would be about 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all
the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right
of the aiming point?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When we attempted to sight in this rifle at
Quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic
sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming
point. In attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we
changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic
sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact
or the point of impact in the other direction. That is, if we moved
the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the
elevation setting of the telescope. And when we had sighted-in the
rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots
were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away
from the point of impact. This was apparently due to the construction
of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is,
the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we
had fired five or six shots.
Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. Have you prepared a diagram of
the telescopic sight?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. I wonder whether you could show us that now to help
illustrate the point you are making.
Let me mark that.
This diagram was prepared by you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.