Mr. FRAZIER. It can be used. But I don't feel that actually the
position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use
of the sling goes.
Mr. McCLOY. But certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even
in this crude form?
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes.
Mr. McCLOY. It would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't
have a sling? It would make it more accurate?
Mr. FRAZIER. It would assist more in offhand than any other type of
shooting, yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the
experiment, so to speak, which you had Klein's conduct, would you form
an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on Exhibit
139--was likely to have been mounted--by Klein's, or likely to have
been mounted subsequently?
Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I could not deduce from that--from the way the scope
is mounted--who mounted it. I can only say that the two are mounted in
identical fashion. And it is possible that the same person or persons
mounted the two scopes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle,
the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt
handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the
top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of
rounds you desire to load.
The maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. However, the weapon
can be loaded with a clip holding 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1 round.
This is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection
port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt.
The weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. It picks up one
cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon,
and the bolt is then locked by turning down.
To fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since
the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection
mechanism?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. The extraction is merely by raising the bolt
and drawing it to the rear. When the cartridge is first loaded, the
rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the
face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired
cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the
chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a
projection in the ejection port called the ejector. The ejector strikes
on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell
to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, to fire the next shot, is any further action
necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if
remaining cartridges are in the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you
find on it?
Mr. FRAZIER. The only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "SMI,"
on the base of the clip, and a number, 952. The significance of that
number I am not aware of. It could be a part number or a manufacturer's
code number.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why someone
might call that a five-shot clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. There is an
area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger
ammunition, such as a .30-06 or a German Mauser rifle, uses five-shot
clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip,
whereas this one actually holds six.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this
rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does the ammunition come in the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. Normally it does not. The ammunition that we have
purchased for this rifle comes in 20-shot boxes. It is possible--and I
say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for
this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not
necessarily part of the same shipment.
Mr. EISENBERG. When you ordered C-250, which is now Commission Exhibit
542, did you receive a clip with that rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone
wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have
purchased the clip later?
Mr. FRAZIER. They would have to acquire it from some source, yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is it commonly available?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Can you use that rifle without the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; you can.
Mr. McCLOY. What is the advantage of the clip?
Mr. FRAZIER. It permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually
loading one shot at a time.
Mr. McCLOY. The only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; one shot at a time.
Mr. McCLOY. When you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been
fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. The same as the .30-06?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven.
Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked
Commission Exhibit 141. Are you familiar with this cartridge?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received this cartridge for examination in
the FBI laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the
rifle at the time it was recovered.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe that cartridge in terms of name,
manufacturer, and country of origin?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, manufactured
by the Western Cartridge Co., at East Alton, Ill.
It is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type.
Cartridges of this type which I have examined, having this type of
bullet, have bullets weighing 160 to 161 grains.
Mr. McCLOY. When you mentioned that cartridge as being a
Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a
Mannlicher 6.5 Schoenauer?
Mr. FRAZIER. I am not familiar with that.
Mr. McCLOY. That is the normal sporting rifle--that Mannlicher
Schoenauer is the normal 6.5 Austrian sporting rifle that you buy. I
just wondered if it was the same cartridge.
Mr. FRAZIER. I am sorry. I don't know whether there is a distinction
between these two or not.
Mr. McCLOY. I happen to have one of those. And I was just wondering if
it is the same cartridge.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a series of three cartridge
cases. I ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I am. I received these cartridge cases on two
different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison
with the rifle.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do these cases have your mark on them?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they do. Each is marked with my initials and the
inscription for identification purposes.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I would like to introduce these cartridge
cases into evidence as Commission Exhibits 543, 544 and 545.
Mr. McCLOY. They may be admitted.
(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 543,
544, and 545 and received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. Will you introduce evidence to show where they came from?
Mr. EISENBERG. Well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the
hearings where they came from. This witness is able to identify them
only as to his examination.
Mr. McCLOY. I understand that. I understand that witness cannot
identify them. But I simply asked for the record whether you have
evidence to show where they did come from.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the
sixth floor of the School Book Depository Building. They were found
near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on
the southern face of the sixth floor of that building.
Mr. Frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted
into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of
cartridge--as you just examined, Commission Exhibit No. 141?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; they are.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is, 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano, manufactured by the
Western Cartridge Co.?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. You gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this
type of cartridge. Could you give us a description of the contour of
the bullet, and its length?
Mr. FRAZIER. The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully
jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of
a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly
it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. The
diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2
inches.
Mr. McCLOY. You say that the diameter is 6.65. Did you mean 6.65 or 6.5
millimeters?
Mr. FRAZIER. I was looking for that figure on that. It is about
6.6--6.65 millimeters.
The bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the
weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel.
On the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is
located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is
6/100ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet
6/100ths of an inch wide.