Mr. DULLES. How old were you then?
Mr. SCOGGINS. 17 or 18. I was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that
boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river.
Mr. DULLES. You stowed away without knowing it.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. I don't think that is a very grave offense.
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never have been in any grave trouble.
Mr. BELIN. One more question, Mr. Scoggins. You rode up here to
Washington on an airplane with Mrs. Markham, did you not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Before you saw Mrs. Markham the other day, did you ever
recognize her as having seen her from the time of the Tippit shooting
at all or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, I saw her down there talking to the policemen after
I came back. You see. I saw her talking to them.
Mr. BELIN. You never actually saw her standing on the street, did you?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I never actually observed her there.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. When you say, "I came back" is that when you got into your
car?
Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had got in the car and toured the neighborhood
and then the policemen came along and I left my cab setting down there
and got in a car with them and left the scene.
Mr. DULLES. At what stage did you see Mrs. Markham?
Mr. SCOGGINS. After I had gotten back up there. After I had drove
around in the neighborhood looking for Oswald or looking for this guy.
Mr. DULLES. It was after that?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was after that.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at
the police station on November 23, was there any other person who at
the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, one other.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know--one other person?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation
is?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, he drives a taxicab.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know his name?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; his name is Bill Whaley.
Mr. BELIN. Whaley?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I think it is Whaley. I didn't know him from Adam until
that day, you know, and he said his name was Whaley.
Mr. BELIN. When you were there and identified a man, had Whaley already
identified that man or not? I mean, did you hear Whaley or see Whaley
identify that man?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. He was sitting over on my left.
Mr. BELIN. He was on your left?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. It was dark. They turned the lights out where we
were sitting. We could see the man with lights up there.
Mr. BELIN. Could you see Mr. Whaley at the time he made the
identification?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I suppose if I would have looked over there I could
have seen that there was a man there, that I could have recognized him.
Mr. BELIN. Were you looking at Mr. Whaley at the time?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you make your identification by your voice or by your
hands?
Mr. SCOGGINS. By my hands, using--I put up three fingers.
Mr. BELIN. Did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of
fingers for the man that you saw?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How many fingers did you hold up?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Three.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how
many fingers Mr. Whaley was holding up?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Then did you know whether or not Mr. Whaley had identified
the man?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any person or were there any persons standing
between you and Mr. Whaley?
Mr. SCOGGINS. That I don't know because I did not look over there.
Mr. DULLES. Could Mr. Whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these
fingers?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No, no. I made sure of that because I had my hand down
like this.
Mr. BELIN. When you had your hand down you are putting it in front of
your belt?
Mr. SCOGGINS. As well as I could remember I had it down kind of like
this here. I don't know whether I used my right or my left hand, but I
didn't hold up three fingers like this, but I held them down just about
like this.
Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat
about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where
you held up your fingers?
Mr. SCOGGINS. About as well as I could remember.
Mr. BELIN. What happened after you held up your fingers, did someone
see you holding your fingers up there?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Representative FORD. Where were they standing beside you so that they
could see your fingers?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my
left, sir.
Representative FORD. Was it close to you, sir?
Mr. SCOGGINS. There was one man on my right. He was Secret Service or
FBI, I think FBI; and the other man was a policeman, Dallas policeman.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know whether Mr. Whaley was making his
identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before
or after?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. All I know is that we viewed them at the same time.
Mr. DULLES. He viewed them at the same time?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know at what time Mr. Whaley made his
identification?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't see him make the identification?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I didn't even see him.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know what his identification was?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I never asked him which one or nothing, because I
never did discuss it with him at all after that.
Representative FORD. When you brought your cab up to the corner of 10th
and Patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a
passenger?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, approximately five minutes before that.
Representative FORD. Do you keep a record of the trips that you take?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. During your working day?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. If I pick up a passenger, say, like 28 minutes
to 12 o'clock, we put 20 minutes to 12. We don't put the odd minutes
down.
If we let him out 2 minutes after 12, we put down 12 o'clock. I know I
let him out at 1 o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. We do put the
destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our
records sheet.
Representative FORD. What does your record show about this last trip?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I picked him up at Love Field and carried him to
321 North Ewing, as well as I can remember now, that was the address.
Representative FORD. And your record shows that?
Mr. SCOGGINS. When I picked him up, the mileage started from, the
mileage I let him out on the speedometer. When I picked him up we put
the mileage down. We don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out
we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the
mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we
let him off, and the amount the fare was.
Representative FORD. And your last entry shows what for that day?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I don't know what the last entry was. Up until then that
was the one where I let the man off at. It was an apartment building.
Of course, I don't have the apartment number, anything like that. The
guy says, "I want to go to 321 North Ewing," and that is where I take
him. It is an apartment. Of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab
at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their
apartment number so we could find it.
Representative FORD. How far was this last destination to the point of
10th and Patton?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It was less than a mile, about a half mile or
maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, I would say.
Representative FORD. Was there any particular reason why you went to
the corner of 10th and Patton?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I belong to that club there, and I was going around
there to get me a coca cola that I could have gotten anywhere else, but
I know a lot of the guys.
Representative FORD. What is the club called?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play
dominos.
Representative FORD. It is at what address?
Mr. SCOGGINS. 123 or 125 South Patton.
Mr. BELIN. About where is it in relation to East 10th and Patton, how
far away, a block, two blocks?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It is not a block. It is just about, I would say,
just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from
where I was parked at to the place, you see.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these
pictures, Mr. Scoggins. Do you see it in this picture, Exhibit 530?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; I can see the building.
Mr. BELIN. Let's see the building here.
Mr. SCOGGINS. That is it up there.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on Exhibit 530 an arrow
which points to this building, and we will put "G" for the gentleman's
club; is that correct? Is that the building to which you are referring?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to
have you identify, Commission Exhibit 534. This is a picture in which
the camera appears to be heading in what direction?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It would be heading east--I mean west on 10th Street.
Mr. BELIN. That picture was taken the other day at the time you drove
your cab back to that scene, is that correct?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I would think it was; yes.
Mr. BELIN. Does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the
time of the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. All right. At this time we offer and introduce into evidence
all exhibits up through 534, except we do not have a 533 because we
renumbered the original Exhibit 533, so we do not have a 533.
Do you have anything more, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD. Those exhibits will be admitted.
(Items identified as Commission Exhibits through No. 534, with the
exception of Exhibit No. 533, were admitted in evidence.)
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Scoggins, you have referred, I believe, to a
conversation you had with Mr. Whaley, I think his name is, and I would
like to have you just recount what you recall of what Mr. Whaley said
to you, and where he said it, and at what time.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well now, this conversation we are talking about, while
we were down there waiting.
Mr. DULLES. Down where, down at the police station?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at 610
South Akard Street, you know.
Mr. DULLES. A cab stand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. We call it our main office.
Mr. DULLES. And Mr. Whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your
cab?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir. Only he drives out of downtown, which office is
610 South Akard Street, that is the number. They have a building there,
a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and
mine, of course, I have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the
same company. I drive an Oak Cliff cab, and he drives downtown.
Mr. DULLES. Relate what Mr. Whaley said to you.
Mr. SCOGGINS. He didn't relate it to me. He was talking to the others.
Mr. DULLES. He was talking to cabdrivers?