Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right on down the side.
Mr. BALL. Make a mark and put an arrow. That was the direction he was
walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The police car had not come into sight yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right.
Mr. BALL. Put an X where the police car was when you first saw it, put
an X there and we will mark that B. Now, after the shooting, where was
the man when you looked at him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He turned and came back this way.
Mr. BALL. Where did he stand and look at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Right here.
Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. We will mark that C. Where were you
standing when he was looking at you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The same position.
Mr. BALL. The same position as the girl shown on this picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is you there in that picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for the photographer to show him where
you were standing?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book,
together with the picture which illustrates the diagram.
The CHAIRMAN. Under what numbers?
Mr. BALL. As 523, which is the diagram, and 524, which is the picture.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The documents identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 521-524 were
received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. You went out there in picture number 3. Now, Mr. Dulles, I
think this will explain it.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, Mr. Ball.
Mr. BALL. I have some other pictures here that might illustrate. Do you
recognize this?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were here the time the picture was taken?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You told the parties where to put the squad car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Does this show the place where the police car was when this
happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The place at the arrow?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. It shows a corner.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the picture make a mark where the man was when he came
back and looked at you.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir. He was a little behind this.
Mr. BALL. Just make an X there in general.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is supposed to be on the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have this marked as Commission Exhibit 525.
The X marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner
after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. Here is
another picture marked 4 in this book which I will mark as Commission
Exhibit 526. Is that you in the picture?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You went out there the day the picture was taken?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you were standing?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that where you were when you saw the shooting?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you move from that place from the time of the shooting
until the time you saw the man on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I wonder, Mrs. Markham, if you would repeat for me, I would
like to hear it, and Congressman Ford would like to hear it, the scene
that you saw where the man now known to be Oswald went up and put his
arms on the door of the police car, as I understand it.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Would you tell that once again. I would like to hear it
again.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly walked to the car. He wasn't in no hurry.
Mr. DULLES. May I ask, was he called, were there any words that you
heard?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I did not. I seen the police car stop.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the policeman say, "Come here," or anything
of that kind?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. DULLES. He might have done it, but you didn't hear it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That is right. And the man went over to the car, put his
hands on the window----
Mr. DULLES. The window was open?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Leaned over like this.
Mr. DULLES. Let me see. Was that on the right-hand side of the car, or
where the driver was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was on the opposite side of the car.
Mr. DULLES. Opposite side of the car from the driver, yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. The window was down, and I know it was down, I
know, and he put his arms and leaned over, I don't know what they were
talking about, I didn't hear it. Then he stepped back in a few minutes,
stepped back two steps.
Mr. DULLES. He stepped back two steps from the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just stepped back twice. Mr. Tippit, of course, the
policeman--I didn't know it was Mr. Tippit----
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mrs. MARKHAM. He calmly opened the door. He calmly crawled out like he
wasn't angry.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have a weapon in his hands?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I didn't see one.
Mr. DULLES. And what happened?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was just calmly walking to the front of the car and
when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know,
that man shot him.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see him draw his revolver?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He shot him like this.
Mr. DULLES. I see.
Mr. BALL. Like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. In the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just
like that. It didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him.
Mr. DULLES. The policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any
menacing gestures toward him? He wasn't trying to grab him or anything
of that kind?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He was very calm, very. I would say like in slow
motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go
in the house for disturbance or something, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. He shot across the hood of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Across the hood.
Mr. BALL. The policeman was in the street, walking in the street around
to the front of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. The policeman then got out on the opposite side of where
Oswald was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I guess he was coming around.
Representative FORD. It appeared as though he was walking around the
front of the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had started around, and then he was going over to the
man.
Mr. BALL. He had only reached the left front wheel though when he was
shot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And he fell into the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. He
didn't fall, just clumped down like that.
Representative FORD. Did the man with the gun move at all as the
officer started to go around the car?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He didn't move. I mean, walked back or anything like
that, no, sir.
Representative FORD. He didn't appear to run?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. I didn't know anything was going to happen. If I had
I would have kept walking, not walking, running.
Mr. DULLES. He had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The policeman was.
Mr. DULLES. Slow?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was there a pool of blood where Mr. Tippit fell in the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show you this picture, Exhibit 533 (renumbered as Exhibit
527, see p. 321). Will you look at that picture and tell me whether it
shows the approximate position where Mr. Tippit fell after he was shot?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He fell right out this way.
Mr. BALL. Look at the discoloration in the street. Is that anywhere
near where Tippit fell?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It don't seem to me it was out that far.
Mr. BALL. It doesn't?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell
this way.
Mr. BALL. He fell this way? These people can't see what you are showing
here. Here is the pool of blood. Which way do you think he fell?
Mrs. MARKHAM. See the wheel would be right down under here, back right
this way. He fell this way.
Mr. BALL. Into the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying
like this.
Mr. DULLES. Is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of
blood?
Mr. BALL. Out to the left.
Mrs. MARKHAM. It seems to me it ought to be here.
Mr. BALL. But there was a pool of blood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I will pass this out to the Commissioners.
Representative FORD. May I ask this, Mr. Ball, the place where you
pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is
shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. It seems
his hat was this way.
Representative FORD. So it is a difference of a foot or two, at the
most?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is right.
Mr. DULLES. Could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall?
Did you actually see blood?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Did I actually see it, sir? I was there.
Mr. DULLES. I know you were there.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I was standing over it.
Mr. DULLES. You were standing right over the officer?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. Just as soon as, just as quick as I could get to
him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an
oval shape. It did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. It was
here, coming out here.
Representative FORD. The blood was?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just gushes. I had my workshoes in my hand. I laid
them up on the squad car. I had my purse, which I can't remember where
I put it, but this, I had a head scarf around my head, I had my coat on.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of these into evidence at this
time, up to 526, inclusive.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be received.
(The items identified as Commission Exhibits Nos. 525 and 526 were
received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. I
must attend a session of the Court.
Mr. DULLES. I will, sir.
(The Chairman left the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond
the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost even with him.
Mr. BALL. And when the police car stopped, did the man stop?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman.
Mr. BALL. The police car was going in the same direction as the man?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And caught up with him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Markham, do you know a man named Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I do not.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever hear of the name?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Did not.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who says he was from
New York?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case
in behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the
mother of Lee Oswald?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. In an appearance before this Commission, a man named Mark
Lane has testified this way. Let me read it to you. That was on
Wednesday, March 4, 1964, Vol. II of a public hearing before this
Commission, page 51. This is what he said:
"I spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that
you made to the Dallas Police Department--"I spoke with the deponent,
the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham, and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss
or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was 100
feet away from the police car, not the 50 feet which appears in the
affidavit."
Do you recall ever stating that to Mr. Lane or anyone else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. He testified: "She gave me a more detailed description of the
man who she said shot Officer Tippit. She said he was short, a little
on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." Did you say that
to Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I don't even know the man.
Mr. BALL. Or anybody else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot Tippit was
short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot
Tippit was short, a little on the heavy side?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir. He wasn't too heavy.
Mr. BALL. Is it your memory that his hair was bushy?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It wasn't so bushy. It was, say, windblown or something.
What I mean, he didn't have a lot of hair.
Mr. BALL. He didn't have a lot of hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; that I could see. I don't even know that man; I
never talked to nobody.
Representative FORD. You didn't talk to him by telephone or any other
means?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a
person who asked you these questions?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. BALL. Now, he also says, and he testified as follows:
"Helen Markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that
same day, that she was very upset. She, of course, had never seen
anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station
she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit in the
lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed Oswald
out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked
Oswald. She said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said
she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and
dark trousers."
Did you ever make that statement to him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did not, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or to anyone else?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not to anybody.
Mr. BALL. When you identified Oswald--it was the number 2 man--were you
told the number 2 man whom you identified in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I was not.
Mr. BALL. Were you ever told his name?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. BALL. Ever told his name later?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Nobody, nobody told me nothing.
Mr. BALL. Well, the man that you identified as the number 2 man in the
lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had
seen shoot Officer Tippit?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on
at that time in the lineup.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Just like I told you. I mostly looked at his face, his
eyes, and his clothing, too.
Mr. BALL. He said here you were able to identify him, Mark Lane
testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of
his clothing, a gray jacket. First, did the man in the lineup have a
gray jacket on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he have on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on this light shirt, dark trousers.
Mr. DULLES. You have considered your answers very carefully, have you,
on this point?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am doing my best.
Mr. DULLES. Yes, I know you are, and you are quite sure you never
talked to anyone who purported to be Mr. Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Never in my life. I talked to two men, and this man who
told me he was from Paris, France. He came down on my job. I was scared
to death. I wasn't going to talk to him. I work for a Greek.
Mr. DULLES. Let's get this a little more clearly, Mrs. Markham. You say
you talked with someone who came from France?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Did he represent a French newspaper?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. You don't know what newspaper?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No. He told--you see, I didn't understand this man, but
my boss could.
Mr. DULLES. He came to you in the restaurant?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. And I was scared, which I was scared of everybody.
I was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he
asked for me and, of course, they knew who I was because I was there so
long.
Mr. DULLES. When was that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall the date.
Mr. DULLES. Was it 2 or 3 days after the assassination or was it right
after?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was quite some time after.
Mr. DULLES. Some time after?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. A week or more, maybe?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Representative FORD. Can you describe this man?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black
horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of----
Mr. DULLES. What did he ask you--excuse me.
Representative FORD. Was he tall or short, heavy set?
Mrs. MARKHAM. About medium, I guess. I didn't pay much attention to the
man.
Representative FORD. Did he have an accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, he did.
Representative FORD. Was it difficult for you to understand him because
of this accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. This is what this man told me. He told me--he told
my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me.
Representative FORD. Did he speak in English with an accent?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. But this man told me the Government sent him.
Representative FORD. Did he identify which government?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had--he showed me who he was. He was a news reporter.
Mr. DULLES. Did he say whether he was a foreigner or an American
citizen?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't remember. I was too scared. But he did show me
his identification, his picture and everything. The Government had sent
him to me, which he was coming to Washington. He was supposed to be
here, and then back somewhere in Dallas, I think he told me.
Mr. DULLES. Could you recall the questions he asked you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He just asked me very few questions. This man asked me
about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did I
see anything after I went into the police station, hear any TV, or see
any TV, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and I said they
did not.
Representative FORD. Did your employer listen to the questions and
answers?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, James Gambolis listened to it.
Mr. DULLES. We will take a moment's recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
Mr. BALL. On the 22d of November, 1963, that is the day of the
shooting, did you talk to an FBI agent named Odum? Do you remember?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I talked to some people, men, down at the police station.
Mr. BALL. That is right. He says that you described the man who shot
Tippit as a white male, about 18, black hair, red complexion, wearing
black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. Do you remember that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never said anything about his shoes because I never did
look at his feet.
Mr. BALL. Did you say about 18?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I said he was young looking.
Mr. BALL. Did you give that age, 18?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you say he had black hair?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You thought he was black-haired?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, that is what I told him. I thought he was
black-haired. I remember saying that.
Mr. BALL. Red complexion?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, not red complexioned.
Mr. BALL. You didn't say that?
Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one
person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one
other?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. Who was the other one with whom you talked?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. He was a newspaper reporter by Life
magazine.
Mr. DULLES. Life magazine?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I remember, which they did print the picture in Life
magazine.
Mr. DULLES. And Life magazine printed what you told them?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And printed it accurately as far as you recall?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Very little of what I told him did he put in.
Mr. DULLES. What they put in was accurate more or less?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Representative FORD. It coincided with what you told him?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, just a little old paragraph or two.
Mr. DULLES. Except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with
anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Just those two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Just a few more questions, Mrs. Markham. You ran immediately
over to where the police officer was lying in the street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I did.
Mr. BALL. Was he alive?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was trying to, but he just couldn't. I just couldn't
make out what he was trying to say.
Mr. BALL. Did some man come up immediately thereafter?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a car did he have?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not immediately.
Mr. BALL. Soon?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Soon.
Mr. BALL. In a pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes. I very frankly remembered this truck, but I remember
it the way it took off.
Mr. BALL. He stopped though, didn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. BALL. That is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall.
Mr. BALL. What did he look like, the man in the pickup truck?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This man had a hat on. I thought he was a policeman.
Mr. BALL. A dark man, looked somewhat Spanish?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I don't recall. I was screaming and crying and trying to
get help, begging for somebody to help me.
Mr. BALL. When did you start screaming?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I started screaming by the time I left where I was
standing and screamed plumb across the street.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said?
Mrs. MARKHAM. "The man has killed a policeman," I remember, "Somebody
help. He has killed him, he has killed him," I was saying that, I was
pulling my hair almost. It is a wonder he did not turn and kill me,
really it was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Scoggins?