Mr. McDONALD. He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL. From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, whenever I hit him, we both fell into the seats.
While we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun----
Mr. BALL. Your left hand?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Somehow I managed to get this hand in the
action also.
Mr. BALL. Your right hand?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. Now, as we fell into the seats, I called out,
"I have got him," and Officer T. A. Hutson, he came to the row behind
us and grabbed Oswald around the neck. And then Officer C. T. Walker
came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. And Officer
Ray Hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the
front.
By the time all three of these officers had got there, I had gotten my
right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free.
Mr. BALL. Had you felt any movement of the hammer?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. When this hand--we went down into the seats.
Mr. BALL. When your left hand went into the seats, what happened?
Mr. McDONALD. It felt like something had grazed across my hand. I felt
movement there. And that was the only movement I felt. And I heard a
snap. I didn't know what it was at the time.
Mr. BALL. Was the pistol out of his waist at that time?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know any way it was pointed?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, I believe the muzzle was toward me, because the
sensation came across this way. To make a movement like that, it would
have to be the cylinder or the hammer.
Mr. BALL. Across your left palm?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. And my hand was directly over the pistol in
this manner. More or less the butt. But not on the butt.
Mr. BALL. What happened when you jerked the pistol free?
Mr. McDONALD. When I jerked it free, I was down in the seats with
him, with my head, some reason or other, I don't know why, and when I
brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and I put
it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. I gave the
pistol to Detective Bob Carroll at that point.
Mr. BALL. Grazed your left cheek?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Scratched--noticeable scratch?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; about a 4-inch scratch just above the eye to
just above the lip.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened after that?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, the officers that had come to my aid started
handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater.
Mr. BALL. What did he say--anything?
Mr. McDONALD. Well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police
brutality, for one thing.
Mr. BALL. What words did he use?
Mr. McDONALD. I couldn't recall the exact words. It was just mixed up
words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested.
Mr. BALL. What did he say about police brutality?
Mr. McDONALD. One thing, "Don't hit me any more." I remember that.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody hit him?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I guess they did.
Mr. BALL. Who hit him, do you know?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I don't, other than myself.
Mr. BALL. You know you hit him?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you go with them outside?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. McDONALD. I was looking for my hat and flashlight.
Mr. BALL. Did you go downtown with them?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Later you went downtown?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you put a mark on the revolver?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six
rounds in the cylinder?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice anything unusual about any one of them?
Mr. McDONALD. I noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an
indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not
that strong of an indentation.
Mr. BALL. We have here Exhibit 143 for identification. Do you know
whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you
arrested?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; this is it. I found the mark here.
Mr. BALL. You found your mark?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. What mark is it?
Mr. McDONALD. I marked the initial "M".
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. McDONALD. Right here, on this steel plate.
Mr. BALL. Of the butt?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on
the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt.
Mr. BALL. How many cartridges were in the cylinder?
Mr. McDONALD. Six, fully loaded.
Mr. BALL. I will show you four that are marked as--we will give these
four an exhibit number. Do you know whether or not they were shells
similar to that?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; they were .38 caliber. Now, I didn't mark all
of these shells, myself.
Mr. BALL. Did you mark any of them?
Mr. McDONALD. I recall marking one.
Mr. BALL. The four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will
mark collectively as Commission Exhibit 518.
(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 518 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. And there are two cartridges that have been marked as
Commission Exhibit 145 that the witness is also examining. Now, on
one of the cartridges that have come from Commission's Exhibit 145,
consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge
with a dent in it?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How can you tell this?
Mr. McDONALD. From the center of this--of the primer there--it is a
small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished.
Mr. BALL. And your mark is on one of these cartridges?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I will show you an Exhibit 519.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 519 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. Is that a picture of the theatre?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And can you mark on there the seat in which the man was
seated who was the suspect?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Put an arrow down to that seat. Did you see Oswald later that
evening?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you saw Oswald, was he bloody any?
Mr. McDONALD. Afterwards?
Mr. BALL. Well, when he was being taken from the theatre. Was he bloody?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; I didn't see any blood.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. McDONALD. Because whenever they took him, they took him directly
out.
Mr. BALL. And you never saw him again?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was he wearing at that time?
Mr. McDONALD. At the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a
T-shirt and dark trousers.
Mr. BALL. A dark brown shirt, a T-shirt, and dark trousers?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission 150. Does that look anything like
the color of the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to 519 in
evidence.
Senator COOPER. They will be admitted in evidence.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 518 and 519 were received in evidence.)
Mr. BALL. Did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's
person?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. It was under his right waist band, right side.
Mr. BALL. Was it under the shirt?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt.
Mr. BALL. Underneath the shirt?
Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, and say it was
underneath the brown shirt that he had on. Not underneath the T-shirt.
The CHAIRMAN. It was not in a holster?
Mr. McDONALD. No, sir; no holster at all.
Mr. BALL. Were--was there an FBI agent there?
Mr. McDONALD. I don't know, sir. I was told he was there, but I don't
know.