Mr. BELIN. What exhibit is that?
Mr. BALL. That is 480. This is 482. You recognize those two pictures?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who are they?
Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. BALL. Now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the Texas
State School Book Depository with me and a photographer, and had your
picture taken, did you not?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what did I ask you to do before the picture was taken?
Mr. JARMAN. To try to get in the same position that we were the day the
assassination was.
Mr. BALL. And did you do that?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir. We tried to the best of our knowledge.
Mr. BALL. I have a picture here I would like to have marked as
Commission Exhibit 494.
Mr. McCLOY. It is so marked.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 494 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. Is that your picture?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Taken last Friday afternoon, March 20th, is that right?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now does it or does it not show your position at about the
time, as you were watching the President's motorcade go by?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; that is the position I had as it was going by.
Mr. BALL. You are on your knees?
Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show this to each member of the Commission. This is a new
exhibit. 485, you recognize that picture?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What does it show?
Mr. JARMAN. It shows that I was on my knees as the motorcade was
passing.
Mr. BALL. And shows the other two men?
Mr. JARMAN. As the motorcade was passing.
Mr. BALL. It shows their position?
Mr. JARMAN. At the time.
Mr. BALL. At the time the motorcade was passing?
Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.
Mr. BALL. This has been introduced into evidence. I don't believe you
have seen that, Congressman.
Representative FORD. This is yourself here?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. The one closest to an individual looking at the
photograph.
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. After the motorcade passed, what happened?
Mr. JARMAN. After the motorcade turned, going west on Elm, then there
was a loud shot, or backfire, as I thought it was then--I thought it
was a backfire.
Mr. BALL. You thought it was what?
Mr. JARMAN. A backfire or an officer giving a salute to the President.
And then at that time I didn't, you know, think too much about it. And
then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started
falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then
the third shot was fired right behind the second one.
Mr. BALL. Were you still on your knees looking up?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, after the third shot was fired, I think I got up and
I ran over to Harold Norman and Bonnie Ray Williams, and told them, I
said, I told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody
was shooting at the President.
Mr. BALL. And then did they say anything?
Mr. JARMAN. Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the
shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few
debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something, and I
told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.
Mr. BALL. He had some white what, like plaster?
Mr. JARMAN. Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.
Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything else that you remember?
Mr. JARMAN. He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the
building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it
didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the
west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection
or anything like that, do you remember?
Mr. JARMAN. That was after we got down to the west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. After you got down where?
Mr. JARMAN. To the west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. Down the west side?
Mr. JARMAN. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And when you were up there you showed me the window to which
you ran, didn't you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The picture was taken of you at that place?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you ran down there was the window open or closed?
Mr. JARMAN. It was closed.
Mr. BALL. And who opened it?
Mr. JARMAN. I did.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do after you opened the window?
Mr. JARMAN. I leaned out and the officers and various people was
running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had
the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things.
Mr. BALL. I show you 488. What does that show?
Mr. JARMAN. That shows me leaning out the window and Bonnie Ray and
Harold Norman was over to the side of me.
Mr. BALL. What window?
Mr. JARMAN. The window on the west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you looked out that window?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How did you happen to run to that window?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, I wanted to see what was going on mostly, because
that was after the motorcade car had took off, and I thought they had
stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. So they went on around
the bend, and after I couldn't see from there I ran to another, the
second window.
Mr. BALL. That second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last
Friday, did you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the picture was taken of that, is that right?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that window is on which side?
Mr. JARMAN. On the west side of the building also.
Mr. BALL. I show you 489. Is that a picture of the west window?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see when you looked out that window?
Mr. JARMAN. When I looked out that window, I saw the policemen and the
secret agents, the FBI men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger
train and things like that.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard Harold Norman say something
that he had heard cartridges?
Mr. JARMAN. All that took place right here in this corner after we had
went to this window.
Mr. BALL. This corner. What corner do you mean?
Mr. JARMAN. In the corner of the building right after we had looked out
this window.
Mr. BALL. Which corner?
Mr. JARMAN. Right here on the west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. On the west side of the building?
Mr. JARMAN. Right.
Mr. BALL. And would that be the window that is shown in 488, or the
window that is shown in 489?
Mr. JARMAN. It was between the two windows.
Mr. BALL. Between the two?
Mr. JARMAN. As we was going to this window.
Mr. BALL. To that window?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear him say?
Mr. JARMAN. He said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting
the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, I mean the bolt,
as it were pulled back, or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard anything like that?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I hadn't.
Mr. BALL. Had you heard any person running upstairs?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or any steps upstairs?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Any noise at all up there?
Mr. JARMAN. None.
Mr. BALL. I have here a diagram which is 487. This is the southeast
corner of the building on this diagram. Do you recognize that?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is the Elm Street side?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Will you point out the window to which you three boys ran
when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards
the----
Mr. JARMAN. This one here.
Mr. BALL. The one marked Y on this diagram?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mr. JARMAN. This one right here.
Mr. BALL. That one marked Y.
Mr. JARMAN. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out
when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars?
Mr. JARMAN. I went to the second window from the south side of the
building on the west.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one marked Z?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. At that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there
at Z?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mr. JARMAN. Because there is a row of bins there with books in them.
Mr. BALL. They block your view?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you
could see from Z?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show you a picture, 491. Do you remember standing in line
near the stairwell?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is you on the end, isn't it?
Mr. JARMAN. Right.
Mr. BALL. On the end, the farthest from the stairwell?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And we took a picture, is that right?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of that area. Does that show the bins?
Mr. JARMAN. That shows the bins.
Mr. BALL. I am now referring to 492.
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see
when you were along this west wall?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the elevators?
Mr. JARMAN. I imagine if I had looked over, but I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you
were standing there at the west window?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Looking toward the railroad track?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember seeing Mr. Truly?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or did you see a motorcycle officer come up?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Or did you hear the elevator go up?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you men do after you looked out the window toward
the railroad tracks from the west window?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, after Norman had made his statement that he had heard
the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, I told him we'd
better get the hell from up here.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN. Down. We ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had
gone down.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN. Then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we
paused a few minutes on four.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you run to?
Mr. JARMAN. To the elevator on the west side.
Mr. BALL. On the west. That wasn't there?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN. When we got downstairs on the first floor, I think the
first one I seen was Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL. Eddie Piper works there, does he?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And who else did you see?
Mr. JARMAN. And I ran into Roy Edward Lewis, which is also another
employee.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else there?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I ran, then we ran to the front door.
Mr. BALL. You ran to the front door?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; and out on the street.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. JARMAN. Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL. You and Harold went out there?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a fellow named Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see him first?
Mr. JARMAN. He was talking to a police officer.
Mr. BALL. How was he dressed?
Mr. JARMAN. He was dressed in construction clothes.
Mr. BALL. Anything else, any other way to describe him?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, he had on a silverlike helmet.
Mr. BALL. Hard-hat?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay out there very long?
Mr. JARMAN. Just a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN. We heard him talking to this officer about that he had
heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out
the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building,
and I told the officer that I believed that they came from inside the
building also, and then he rushed us back inside.
Mr. BALL. The officer did?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How did you know this fellow was Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, at that time I didn't know him at all.
Mr. BALL. Have you learned that since?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who told you that the man in the hard-hat was Brennan?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, they have had him down there at the building a couple
of times.
Mr. BALL. Were you taken to the police station?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a statement?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When?
Mr. JARMAN. That Saturday morning.
Mr. BALL. The next day?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in the building, the Texas School Book
Depository Building that afternoon?
Mr. JARMAN. I'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when
they turned us loose and told us to go home.
Mr. BALL. When you were there did you notice whether any of the
employees were missing?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When did you notice, and who was missing?
Mr. JARMAN. When we started to line up to show our identification,
quite a few of us asked where was Lee. That is what we called him, and
he wasn't anywhere around. We started asking each other, have you seen
Lee Oswald, and they said no.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody else missing?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who.
Mr. JARMAN. Charles Douglas Givens, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Charles Givens?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. JARMAN. I can't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. Had Givens been in the Depository that morning?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; he had.
Mr. McCLOY. He had been there?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did Givens come back later?
Mr. JARMAN. He didn't come back to the building until they picked him
up.
Mr. BALL. He did come back to the building before you left, did he?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He didn't?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was not there when you left?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. When you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention
to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were
fired?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. In other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it
this way. If there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you listen for any?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the
time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much
time do you think it was?
Mr. JARMAN. After the third shot was fired I would say it was about a
minute.
Mr. McCLOY. You have had military experience, haven't you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt
moving?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see the President actually hit by the bullets?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I couldn't say that I saw him actually hit, but
after the second shot, I presumed that he was, because I had my eye on
his car from the time it came down Houston until the time it started
toward the freeway underpass.
Mr. McCLOY. You saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you?
Mr. JARMAN. I saw him lean his head.
Representative FORD. You actually saw the car lurch forward, did you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. That is a distinct impression?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. And you had followed it as it turned from Main on
to Houston and followed it as it turned from Houston on to Elm?
Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.
Representative FORD. Had your eye on the car all the time?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Where did you think the sound of the first shot
came from? Do you have a distinct impression of that?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, it sounded, I thought at first it had came from
below. That is what I thought.
Representative FORD. As you looked out the window and you were looking
at the President's car.
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Did you have a distinct impression as to whether
the sound came from your left or from your right?
Mr. JARMAN. I am sure it came from the left.
Representative FORD. But your first reaction, that is was from below.
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. When the second shot came, do you have any
different recollection?
Mr. JARMAN. Well, they all sounded just about the same.
Representative FORD. You distinctly recall three shots?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. And at what point did you get up from where you
were on your knees in the window?
Mr. JARMAN. When the motorcar picked up speed.
Representative FORD. Was this after what you thought was the third shot?
Mr. JARMAN. The third shot; yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy said you had been in the army 8 years,
two 4-year hitches. Was there any doubt in your mind that this was a
gunshot, either one of the three?
Mr. JARMAN. Not after the second shot. I didn't have any doubt in my
mind then.
Representative FORD. When did you first learn of the President's
motorcade route?
Mr. JARMAN. That morning.
Representative FORD. Friday morning, November 22d?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. How did you find out about it?
Mr. JARMAN. The foreman of the employees on the first floor.
Representative FORD. What is his name?
Mr. JARMAN. William Shelley was standing up talking to Mrs. Lee.
Representative FORD. To Mrs. Lee?
Mr. JARMAN. Miss Lee, or Mrs. Lee, I think, and he was discussing to
her about the President coming, asked her was she going to stand out
there and see him pass.
Representative FORD. About what time Friday morning was this?
Mr. JARMAN. I imagine it would be about--I think it was between 8:30
and 9:00. I am not sure.
Representative FORD. You hadn't read about it in the papers the night
before or that morning?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with Lee
Oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming
by the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN. It was some time that morning, between 9:30 and 10:30.
Representative FORD. This was after you heard Mr. Shelley and Miss or
Mrs. Lee talk?
Mr. JARMAN. Discuss it--yes.
Representative FORD. Did Oswald ask you, or did you initiate the
conversation and tell Oswald of the route?
Mr. JARMAN. He asked me.
Representative FORD. What was his reaction?
Mr. JARMAN. After I had told him the route that the President probably
would take, he just said, "Oh, I see" and went back to filling orders.
Representative FORD. You testified earlier that you were standing on
the steps or in front of the School Depository Building prior to the
President's motorcade coming by the building.
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir. I was standing on the sidewalk.
Representative FORD. But in front of the building?
Mr. JARMAN. In front of the building.
Representative FORD. Then you said you went around the building.
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. What route did you take? Did you go down Elm or
did you go down Houston?
Mr. JARMAN. I went to the corner of the building facing Elm, and turned
going north on Houston.
Representative FORD. Can you turn around and--here is the main entrance
on Elm Street. And you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less
where?
Mr. JARMAN. Right here.
Representative FORD. In which direction did you go then?
Mr. JARMAN. This way.
Representative FORD. You went by the front to the corner of Houston and
Elm, and then down Houston towards the loading dock?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN. We walked around to the back entrance and went through this
door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we
walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD. How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN. Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD. You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes.
Representative FORD. This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN. That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD. You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. As you rode the elevator, you noticed the other
one was on the sixth floor?
Mr. JARMAN. Right, sir.
Representative FORD. Have you ever been in any trouble with the police
or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the Army?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. How was Oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work?
Do you remember that?
Mr. JARMAN. I don't exactly recall how he was dressed. I think he had
on some dress pants. But I didn't notice the color.
Mr. BALL. What kind of pants?
Mr. JARMAN. Some kind of these slacks you wear.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt?
Mr. JARMAN. Ivy leagues, I believe.
Mr. BALL. What kind of a shirt, do you know?
Mr. JARMAN. He never hardly worked in a shirt. He worked in a T-shirt.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember if he had a T-shirt on that day?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes; he had on a T-shirt that morning.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you see at any time Oswald that morning with a bundle
or package of any kind?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. When did you first come to the conclusion that any of the
shots came from up above you?
Mr. JARMAN. After we had ran down to this last window on the west side
of the building, and we was discussing it. And then after I got to
thinking about all the debris on Bonnie Ray's head, and I thought about
that, also. And so I told Hank, I say, "That shot probably did come
from upstairs, up over us," and Hank said, "I know it did, because I
could hear the action of the bolt, and I could hear the cartridges drop
on the floor."
And I told him there we better get the hell from up here.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were
downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met
Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could
you?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this
conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN. No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him
about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling
the officer that.
And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Are you a married man?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a family?
Mr. JARMAN. Yes, sir; three children.
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is all.
Thank you very much for coming and helping us out. We appreciate it
very much.
Mr. JARMAN. We are glad to do it.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Chairman, we would like to recall Mr. Brennan.