Mr. WILLIAMS. No; they wasn't with me. First I think they took me and
another fellow, Danny--they took us in one car. Then they took some
other fellows in another car, and then another car, I think.
Mr. BALL. You were with Danny Arce and one or two police officers?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's all.
Mr. BALL. Do you know when Norman and Jarman went out?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I don't think Norman and Jarman came
down right then. They brought Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady, a fellow
by the name of Jack Dougherty, and Charles Givens later on, they
brought them right behind us.
Mr. BALL. When you left the first floor with the officers, was Norman
still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; he was in the building.
Mr. BALL. And was Jarman still there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so
far into evidence.
Mr. DULLES. Could you give me the numbers?
Mr. BALL. I think they run 483 to 492, inclusive.
Mr. DULLES. Was 481 introduced?
Mr. BALL. If 481 and 482 were not, we offer them. 483 is a diagram of
the sixth floor. We offer that. Everything this morning from 477 to 492
we offer in evidence. The last number is 492.
Mr. DULLES. All exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the
record up to and including 492 will be admitted.
(The material heretofore marked Exhibits Nos. 481 through 492,
inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in
evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. I have some questions.
When you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named Brennan,
and did a man named Brennan identify you downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember that.
Mr. McCLOY. No one that you know--no one said, "This is the man I have
seen on the fifth floor window?"
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you
got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building
because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we
arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No
one leave the building."
Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed
between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally
down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the
fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any
recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10
minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were
looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down
to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a
little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.
Mr. DULLES. Do you know what time it was when you went off and left for
the police station?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not give you the exact time.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building
before the police could get there? Did any of your friends or the
people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left
the building before the building was closed?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard Mr. Truly--he said that--he mentioned
that--he said, "Where is Lee?" That is what everybody called him.
"Where is Lee?", he said, and therefore I assume he did not know
where Lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody
else was there. And there was another colored fellow by the name of
Charles Givens. He wasn't in the building at the time. He was downtown
somewhere.
Mr. McCLOY. Had he been at the building at the time of the
shooting--Givens?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't believe he had.
Mr. DULLES. What did Mr. Truly say about Lee not being there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The only thing I heard him say is--I think an officer
asked him, "Is everyone here?" And he said, "Where is Lee?"--like that,
you know.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Truly said that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted
you, who stopped you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Are you familiar with firearms?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Do you ever do any hunting?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I never go hunting.
Mr. McCLOY. But you have heard shots fired?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I heard my grandfather try a gun out, something
like that.
Mr. McCLOY. You were not in the army?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I have never been in the army.
Mr. McCLOY. I think that is all I have.
Mr. DULLES. I have one question.
You have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a
backfire or a firecracker.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Was there any difference in the sound of those three
explosions?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As far as I remember, there wasn't any difference in the
sound. It was just the time between the sound.
Mr. McCLOY. As I heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause
between the first and the second shot than there was between the second
and the third.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Let me get this clear. Did you see the President crumple
after the shot? Did you see the President hit?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Personally, I did not see him, because I was kind of
jumping.
Mr. DULLES. Are there any other questions?
Thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. We will recess at
this time until 2 o'clock this afternoon.
(Whereupon, at 12:40 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)