Mr. BALL. I am not going into what you saw. But could you see either
elevator from where you were standing at "Z"?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly.
Mr. BALL. You mean the west elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the east elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you could not see it exactly.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to
Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you
were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a
police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth
floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle
policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white
helmet.
Mr. BALL. What did he do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.
Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.
Mr. BALL. They reported that you told them on the 23d of November that
you and Hank, that is Hank Norman, isn't it----
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Junior--that is Junior Jarman--were standing where they
would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the
stairs. Did you tell them that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not possibly have told him that, because you
cannot see anything coming down from that position.
Mr. BALL. And that you did not see anyone coming down.
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. An elephant could walk by there, and you could
not see him.
Mr. BALL. That day we were out there, Friday, March 20th, we took some
pictures.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I show you 490.
(The document described was marked Exhibit No. 490 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. We took a picture from where you were standing towards the
stairs. Do you recognize that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What is that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. This is the side we were on. I believe these are the
bookshelves I was speaking of.
Mr. BALL. That is the ones that hide the stairwell?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't
you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You saw these pictures taken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was the camera?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The camera was located about the exact place I was
standing looking out this window.
Mr. BALL. That would be "Z" on 487?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And was pointed toward what direction?
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase.
Mr. BALL. The way you would have been looking on that day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Right.
Mr. BALL. And this shows those shelves.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I have two other pictures I would like to show, and I would
like to show the Commissioners all three at the same time.
Now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, on this picture here, on 487, that would be what
location?
Mr. WILLIAMS. On this picture here, that would be about right in here.
Mr. BALL. Near the "up", is that right?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I would like to have the Commissioners note that--that the
man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell.
We took your pictures three in a row, is that right?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. And then do you recall the picture was taken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I recall this picture. This picture was taken
from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only
thing you would be able to see from this point. And this picture here
was James Jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder.
Mr. BALL. Also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they
were here--on the day, November 22d, were the cartons piled somewhat
like they are here?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They were piled somewhat like here, because they have
been rearranged since that time.
Mr. BALL. Now, in both pictures, 492 and 490, you see two windows, do
you not?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth
floor, 487, as where?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Right here.
Mr. BALL. The windows next to the west elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And in this picture, are you able to see either elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture?
Mr. BALL. This picture--490 and 492--are you able to see either
elevator?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator.
Mr. BALL. Now, in this picture, 491, where is the downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The downstairs come right in here.
Mr. BALL. Are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this
view, 492?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is
that right?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr. DULLES. How long has that shelving been there--for quite a long
while? Or was it put there recently?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was there from the time I started, as far as I
can remember.
Mr. DULLES. That goes back to the time you were first employed there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. At the time I came to the building.
Mr. DULLES. So it could not have been put up a day or two before.
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you pay any attention to that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. As you were standing at the window, did you hear any
footsteps?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Up above--hear any movement up above?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone
up above?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; we wasn't paying any attention.
Mr. BALL. Now, in this FBI report that we have dated the 23d of
November 1963, the report that you said that someone might have been
coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. Did
you say that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think I remember saying that.
Mr. BALL. After you stood at the west window for a while, what did you
do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we stood at the west window for a while, we decided
to go down. Then we left.
Mr. BALL. How did you go down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We went to the fourth floor first. Then we paused for a
minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. Then
we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see there?
Mr. McCLOY. How did you get to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. By stairs.
Mr. DULLES. There were some people on the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember seeing maybe two or three women
standing in the window, looking out the window.
Mr. DULLES. Looking out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Which stairway did they take, west or east?
Mr. BALL. There was only one stairway, and that is the one in the
corner.
Did you run down stairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran.
Mr. BALL. When you got to the first floor, what did you see?
Mr. WILLIAMS. When we arrived to the first floor, the first thing I
noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. I think some firemen came
in with a water hose. And then the next thing that happened, these
detectives, or maybe FBI--anyway, they stopped us all and they said,
"Do you work here?" And we told them yes. And they took our name,
address, and they searched everybody. And then the other fellow--I
think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. I think
we told him yes. They got out all the fellows I think that was working
on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the
courthouse, I think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things.
Mr. BALL. You made out an affidavit there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you go out of the building shortly after you came
downstairs?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They wouldn't let anybody out of the building.
Mr. BALL. How long after you came down from the first floor were you
taken over to the Police Department?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long.
Mr. BALL. You can't give me any estimate in minutes?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I would not want to say.
Mr. DULLES. Did you see Lee Oswald at any time during this period?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't remember seeing him.
Mr. BALL. Were the police with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; they were.