Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had
eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or
15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.
Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of
November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon
with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one
you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of
the building.
Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up
there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to
Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to
the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were
watching the Presidential parade.
Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first,
they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said,
"Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I
don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact
time now?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank
your pop, your Doctor Pepper, before you came down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there any length of time before the Presidential
parade came by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, sir, on the fifth floor?
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, Norman and
Jarman.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there a while before it came around.
Mr. BALL. You were at what window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I believe we was on the east side of the window,
and I think Hank was--I think he was directly under the sixth floor
window where Oswald was supposed to have shot the President from. And
I think I was a window over. And I think James Jarman was two or three
windows over.
Mr. BALL. I will show you a picture here, which is 482. Do you see
yourself in that picture?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I am right here.
Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a dark line down there towards you and put an
arrow on the end. I will mark that W; the arrow W on 482 points to you,
Bonnie Ray Williams.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting in the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were watching the parade?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember whether I was watching the parade here
or not. But I was in the window, that window.
Mr. BALL. Do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as
we look at the picture?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is Harold Norman.
Mr. BALL. Now, here is another photograph which is 480, giving more of
the front of the building. Can you tell us in what window your friend
Jarman was sitting, or watching?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this is James Jarman right here.
Mr. BALL. All right. Draw a line down to that on 480. Draw an arrow to
the window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. We will mark that W on 480.
Now, were you boys sitting down or standing up?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Are you referring to the picture?
Mr. BALL. No, I am talking about your memory now as to what you were
doing at the time you were watching for the Presidential parade.
Mr. WILLIAMS. At the time we were watching for the President's parade,
I believe I was in a squat position. But I don't remember whether I was
on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet.
Mr. BALL. When the parade went by, how were you--squatting?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As the parade went by, I was in a squat position.
Mr. BALL. Last Friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth
floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position,
did you not?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. To have your pictures taken.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. I can only ask you about your position. First of all, we will
mark this as 485.
(The photograph was marked Commission Exhibit No. 485 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. I will mark this photograph as 486.
(The photograph was marked Exhibit No. 486 for identification.)
Mr. BALL. 485 is a picture of three men. You were there when that
picture was taken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who are the men who are there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all in the corner of the east of the building is
Harold Norman. Secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be James
Jarman.
Mr. BALL. Who is the man in the center?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That is me.
Mr. BALL. Is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the
parade?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was at the time.
Mr. BALL. Now, I show you 486 and who are the men in that position?
Mr. WILLIAMS. In this picture here, 486--this fellow--the other fellow
in the corner, in the east of the building, is Harold Norman. I am in
the window next to him.
Mr. BALL. Your back is to the picture?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Is that about the position you were in when the President's
parade went by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was.
Mr. BALL. Now, what do you remember happened when the President's
parade went by?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, to the best of my ability, what I remember was
first coming off of--I believe it was Main Street--well, two motorcycle
policemen came around. I think it was two or maybe three. They came
around first. And then I think the President's car followed. And I
believe a car was behind it carrying the Vice President, as I remember.
I am not sure about it. President Kennedy was sitting in the back seat.
I believe his wife was in the back seat. I believe Governor Connally
was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the
street--I believe----
Mr. McCLOY. What street are you talking about there? Are you talking
about Main Street, Houston Street, or Elm Street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, as I say, they was coming off of Main
Street. Then as it turned the corner, the corner which I am speaking
of, most people refer to it as Elm Street. But it is not really Elm
Street. I believe it is the start of the turnpike, because Elm Street
runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the parade come up Houston, north on Houston?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. And then you saw it turn to the left in front of your
building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now tell us what happened after the President's car had
passed your window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. After the President's car had passed my window, the last
thing I remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had
a habit of pushing his hair back. The last thing I saw him do was he
pushed his hand up like this. I assumed he was brushing his hair back.
And then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first I thought
they were saluting the President, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle
backfire. The first shot--there was two shots rather close together.
The second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot
and the second shot, as I remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, was your head out the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I could not say for sure. I do not remember.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice--where did you think the shots came from?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, the first shot--I really did not pay any attention
to it, because I did not know what was happening. The second shot, it
sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot.
And it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. Cement
fell on my head.
Mr. BALL. You say cement fell on your head?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old
building, because it shook the windows and everything. Harold was
sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. If
you want to know my exact words, I could tell you.
Mr. BALL. Tell us.
Mr. WILLIAMS. My exact words were, "No bull shit." And we jumped up.
Mr. BALL. Norman said what?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said it came directly over our heads. "I can even hear
the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." But I did not
hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because I wasn't
paying attention.
Mr. BALL. Norman said he could hear it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. He said he could hear it. He was directly under the
window that Oswald shot from.
Mr. BALL. He was directly under. He told you as he got up from the
window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; he did.
Mr. BALL. After he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought
it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did Jarman say
anything?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think Jarman, he--I think he moved before any of us.
He moved towards us, and he said, "Man, somebody is shooting at the
President." And I think I said again. "No bull shit." And then we all
kind of got excited, you know, and, as I remember, I don't remember him
saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. But we all decided
we would run down to the west side of the building.
Mr. BALL. You ran down to the west side of the building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Ran down to the west side? You mean you were still
on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of
the building. We saw the policemen and people running, scared,
running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building,
railroad tracks. They were running towards that way. And we thought
maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over
our head. But since everybody was running, you know, to the west side
of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody
was down there. And so we all ran that way, the way that the people was
running, and we was looking out the window.
Mr. BALL. When the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men
notice it and say anything about it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe Harold was the first one.
Mr. BALL. That is Hank Norman?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe he was the first one. He said "Man, I know
it came from there. It even shook the building." He said, "You got
something on your head." And then James Jarman said, "Yes, man, don't
you brush it out." By that time I just forgot about it. But after I got
downstairs I think I brushed it out anyway.
Mr. BALL. Jarman is called Junior?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Well, did Norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the
rifle?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I don't remember him saying anything about it.
Mr. BALL. But you heard him say he could hear the cartridges?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard Harold Norman--pardon me, I thought you were
saying James Jarman.
Mr. BALL. Did Norman say anything about the bolt?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes. He said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like
it was right above. He said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the
shells hitting the floor.
Mr. BALL. But you could not hear this?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No; I could not hear it.
Mr. BALL. That was an old floor, wasn't it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it was.
Mr. BALL. Could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the
sixth floor as you would look above your window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time, that day of November 22d, I did not
notice that. But the other day when you were questioning me, even after
the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor,
well, you still could see light. And the new floor extended a little
beyond the old floor. So therefore I would say that you could see light
much more when the old floor was there.
Mr. BALL. When you were there the other day, you looked up through a
crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Could you see the new floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. You could. You could see daylight through.
Mr. BALL. Now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the
fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. With reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack
that I was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly
over Norman's head.
Mr. BALL. And that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a
joint with the wall?
Mr. WILLIAMS. With the wall.
Mr. BALL. You say you ran down to the west window.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. From where you were?