Mr. BELIN. No. I am referring now to the last interview you had on
January 7th, in which it says that you felt that Oswald most resembled
the man you had seen in the window.
Is that what you told them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
You mean told this man?
Mr. BELIN. On January 7th; yes, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I don't believe I told this man in those words. I told
him what I had said at the lineup. But he might have misinterpreted
that I was saying that again.
Mr. BELIN. In other words--well, I don't want to say in other words.
When you said on January 7th that upon seeing Lee Harvey Oswald in the
lineup you felt that Oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in
the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I am referring to a statement to the FBI on January 7th
of this year.
Mr. BRENNAN. All right.
Mr. BELIN. By that, did you have reference to your own personal
recollection, or what you said at the time of the Dallas Police
Department lineup?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I was referring to what I said at the Dallas
Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. On January 7th of this year, what is the fact as to whether
or not you could give--whether or not you felt on November 22d that the
man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not
what you told him, but what was the fact?
Mr. BRENNAN. On January 7th, at that time I did believe that I could
give positive identification as well as I did later.
Mr. BELIN. You mean in the December interview?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this: You said you saw the man with the rifle
on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some Negroes on the fifth
floor.
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get as good a look at the Negroes as you got at the
man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you feel that your recollection of the Negroes at that
time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes--at that time, it was. Now--the boys rode up with me
on the plane--of course I recognize them now. But as far as a few days
later, I wouldn't positively say that I could identify them. I did
identify them that day.
Mr. BELIN. Well, for instance, when I showed you Exhibit 482, you said
that you could not identify----
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct
profiles.
Mr. DULLES. Mr. Belin, I don't think you have asked they be admitted as
yet.
Mr. BELIN. No, sir. I have one more mark to make on them, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. The pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is
not distinct enough.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Now, I wonder if you would take on Exhibit 482, if you can kind of mark
the way the rifle was at the time you saw it.
Here is a red pencil. If you could put on Exhibit 482 the direction
that you saw the rifle pointing, sir.
Mr. BRENNAN. I would say more at this angle. Maybe not as far out as
this.
Mr. BELIN. You have put a line, and I have tried to make a little bit
darker line.
Mr. BRENNAN. That is as close as I can get it.
Mr. BELIN. This is on Exhibit 482--as to the angle at which you saw the
rifle. And you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this
line goes on Exhibit 482, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Representative FORD. That is the angle that you believe the rifle was
pointed?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. DULLES. And that is from the area in the window from which the
rifle was pointing?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was
protruding out of the window?
Mr. BRENNAN. On a straight view like that it looked like it was.
But as I have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to
be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. It
did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as
there was in the window.
Mr. BELIN. At this time, we offer and introduce into evidence Exhibits
480, 481, and 482.
Mr. DULLES. They will be accepted.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 480, 481, and 482 were received in evidence.)
Mr. McCLOY. I have one or two questions, if you are finished, Mr. Belin.
Mr. BELIN. One more question, sir.
Did you ever tell anyone that you were 90 yards away from that window
where you saw the gun?
Mr. BRENNAN. No. It was a misunderstanding. My first calculation was
that I was about 75-foot out from the window, and the calculation of
the window 75-foot up. So the hypotenuse there would be approximately
110-foot. That was my first calculation.
But since we made a step of the grounds Friday, I was farther out than
75 feet. Approximately 93 feet is what we calculated Friday.
Mr. BELIN. One additional question, sir.
When did you first see Exhibit 479?
Mr. BRENNAN. This morning.
Mr. BELIN. This morning here.
And on Exhibit 479, who picked the person out as being you in that
picture? Was it you or was it I?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did.
I might add that prior to Friday, no one had ever gave me any
information on your evidence whatsoever.
Mr. BELIN. Well, on Friday you and I met for the first time in
Dallas--that would be on March 20th.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. And we sat down and I asked you just to tell me what
happened, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Did I ask you a general question and say, "What happened?"
Or did I just ask you repeated questions?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what
happened.
Mr. BELIN. And you just started to tell it, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe that sums it up.
Mr. BELIN. And then we then went outside where you pointed out the
place where you were sitting?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you
had them examined?
Mr. BRENNAN. He is in Port Lavaca. He is the only leading optometrist
there.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be Dr. Howard R. Bonar?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
How did you find that out?
Mr. BERLIN. Well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here.
Mr. BRENNAN. Had that question been asked me before?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, it had. On November 22, when you advised that you wore
glasses for reading purposes only.
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right, the FBI, Mr. Lish, right?
Mr. BELIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. That examination was before the sand blasting, of course.
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, sir. The sandblasting wasn't until January or
early February of this year.
Representative FORD. Did you have your glasses on at the time of the
assassination?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. McCLOY. You can see better at that distance without your glasses
than with them?
Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, yes, much better. Oh, I could put these glasses on and
it is just like looking through a window pane. The upper part is just
regular clear.
Mr. DULLES. Do you have some questions, Mr. McCloy?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes; I have some questions.
You said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off
this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible
fusilade of shots.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. Then you went across and picked up a police officer, is
that right?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And then you went with him to the steps of the Texas School
Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Eventually, yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of
the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long
would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas
Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the
steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer,
and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while
until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was
fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the
solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is
hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret
Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps
of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came
down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified
them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then
Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book
store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone
pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking
somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate--was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6
minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time
that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were
on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret
Service men there--I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5
minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.