Mr. JENNER. That would be hearsay?
Mrs. PAINE. That would be hearsay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know, are you familiar with the report that
appeared in the Fort Worth Press on January 15, 1964, reporting that
you had told Marvin Lane that Lee could not have taken the rifle from
your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge?
Do you recall that?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mark Lane.
Mrs. PAINE. It is Mark but that perhaps was in the Fort Worth Press. I
recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the Fort
Worth Press?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I did; with slight variation. It always came out a
more definite statement in the press than I meant to make it.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say to the reporter then?
Mrs. PAINE. I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from
the garage without my knowing it. There were two weekends particularly
in question which had been reported in the Press that someone had seen
him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the 9th and 10th, and I
was home virtually all of that weekend except Monday the 11th as I have
already described.
The other being the following weekend, and I didn't see how he could
have--the weekend he was not out at my house, I didn't see how he could
have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if
the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, I didn't see what the
purpose of his coming out the 21st of November was in the situation.
And this is what I told Mr. Tackett of the Fort Worth Press.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also tell Mr. Tackett in addition to, that his
reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any
other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle
practice?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. By that far I mean there is no place you can walk to
from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough
place where you could fire. It would be difficult to walk that far.
Mr. JENNER. Where was the firing range at which it was suggested he
practiced?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know exactly. It was in the Grand Prairie area,
just south of where we are located. But it would be a 15-minute car
drive I would expect.
Mr. JENNER. From your home to the firing range. Do you know, did you
ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. You are relying on the newspapers, are you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When you say thinking of its location you are thinking of
the general location of Grand Prairie, Tex.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Were you asked to give your opinion on that?
Mrs. PAINE. I think so.
Senator COOPER. Why would you submit that as your conclusion that he
could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing
range?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing--well--it had been reported in the press
that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen
him, Oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the 9th, 10th, and the
following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what I could on
the subject if I had any contrary information, and I did any time the
reporters asked me about it.
Senator COOPER. When you made a statement about the rifle, were you
considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the
21st before you got up?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't understand the question.
Senator COOPER. The 22d, yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Let me say in making such a statement to the Press, I was
not implying that I didn't think Oswald had taken a gun from my house
on the morning of the 22d. Now, you ask the question again and perhaps
I will understand it better.
Senator COOPER. Were you referring to two weekends when he left your
house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including
also the morning of the 22d?
Mrs. PAINE. I was definitely not including the morning of the 22d.
Mr. JENNER. May I proceed, Mr. Chairman.
Senator COOPER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of any occasion when Lee and Marina did or
might have visited the welfare office of the Salvation Army on your
return from Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Having in mind all your contact with them during that
period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken
place, that they did visit the Salvation Army Welfare Office?
Mrs. PAINE. It was suggested that this was in the fall of the year?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't know of any time that they could have.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall in your discussion with Mr. Randle when the
matter of the Texas School Book Depository possible employment came up,
did you make a statement to Mrs. Randle suggesting that she not mention
to anyone that Marina was of Russian birth?
Mrs. PAINE. After he had been hired I told Mrs. Randle that Lee was
worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to
Wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not
to be talked about where he worked, that he had a Russian wife as
that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in
Russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his
citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that Wesley
would not talk about it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the extent of the conversation?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust I have given
it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know a Frank Krystinik?
Mrs. PAINE. I do.
Mr. JENNER. He is an associate of your husband?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion to say to him at any time that Lee
Oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children?
Mrs. PAINE. I could well have given him that impression or given him
that impression through Michael. I didn't very often see Frank.
Mr. JENNER. But you could have made that remark to him?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You made similar remarks to others?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed, I have.
Mr. JENNER. During the time you visited with your mother-in-law, Mrs.
Young, did you say to her that Lee wished his wife to return to Russia
alone?
Mrs. PAINE. I very probably did.
Mr. JENNER. And also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak
English?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that I did.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina did not wish to return to Russia?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Senator COOPER. While you are getting your papers together can I ask a
few questions?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Senator COOPER. I refer to November 22 when the police came and you and
Marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that.
Then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket.
Now, at a later time, I believe you testified that the police showed
Marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she
had seen in Lee's possession.
What did she say about it?
Mrs. PAINE. She said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun,
that she was not certain that that was the one. That she could not
absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun
or not.
Senator COOPER. Was she speaking in Russian?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Senator COOPER. Were you translating?
Mrs. PAINE. No, Mr. Mamantov.
Senator COOPER. Were you following what she said?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Senator COOPER. How did she designate the sight? What words?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as
I recall.
Senator COOPER. Did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the
words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she
described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle?
Mrs. PAINE. My judgment is that Mr. Mamantov used the word in reference
to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word.
Asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in
Russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or
whatever the word used was on the gun.
Senator COOPER. Now, at any time on the 22d, after she had admitted
that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on
the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything
more about having seen the rifle before?
Mrs. PAINE. No; she didn't.
Senator COOPER. To you? What?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Senator COOPER. Did you know who brought Lee Oswald to your house from
Dallas when he would come for his visits?
Mrs. PAINE. After he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he
came with Wesley Frazier.
Senator COOPER. Did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him
to your house?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever say that any fellow worker at the
Depository brought him to the house?
Mrs. PAINE. Other than Wesley Frazier; no.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever mention by name or any description any of
the people with whom he worked at the Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. Except for Wesley; no.
Senator COOPER. He never mentioned any one of his fellow workers,
associates there?
Mrs. PAINE. None.
Senator COOPER. Did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or
disliking them as a group or as individuals?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't.
Senator COOPER. In your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he
ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates?
Mrs. PAINE. I never heard him mention anyone.
Senator COOPER. He never mentioned the name of any person?
Mrs. PAINE. Not anyone. He mentioned a friend in Houston as I have
already testified, no name and I was wondering whether there was any
such friend, I recall that. That is absolutely the only reference I can
recall.
Senator COOPER. You said that you told someone that Marina did not
agree with his political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. How did you know that?
Mrs. PAINE. She told me she wasn't interested in politics. She told me
indeed that Lee complained about her lack of interest.
Senator COOPER. That is something different from saying that she didn't
agree with them.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed
out leaflets in New Orleans. This is still different from saying she
disagreed, though. But that is the most I can say.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell her what her political views were, if
any?
Mrs. PAINE. She said she didn't consider herself a person interested in
politics. She----
Senator COOPER. Did she ever refer to Lee being a Marxist or a
Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall such a reference ever.
Senator COOPER. Did she ever tell you whether or not she was a Marxist
or a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I assumed she was not either.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. I assumed she was not either. She did at one point poke fun
at the Party faithful who attended a Young Communist meeting in Minsk,
whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull.
Senator COOPER. I missed the early part of your testimony so you
may have testified to this, but I thought that I recalled that you
did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the
Commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the
Oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect
your own Russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested
because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it
was an unusual circumstance which interested you?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. It made him an odd person. I was interested in the curious
sense of what could have motivated him to do this.
Senator COOPER. Having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about
it, inquire about his experience?
Mrs. PAINE. I guess I wasn't interested enough.
Senator COOPER. What led him to do it?
Mrs. PAINE. And as I have already testified he always wanted to speak
Russian to me, which shortens my tongue. I can't say as much or raise
as many questions.
Senator COOPER. Well, did you try to search out the reasons for his
defection and the reasons for returning?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I didn't.
Senator COOPER. And his political views, his economic views, that kind
of thing?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I regret now that I didn't take any interest, but I did
not.
Senator COOPER. You said that, in answer to counsel that, you either
did tell people or probably told them that you believed Lee Oswald was
a Communist.
Mrs. PAINE. It is my impression I spoke of him as he spoke of himself
as a Marxist.
Senator COOPER. And you think, you believe, that has some relationship
to communism?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh; yes.
Senator COOPER. I think you have stated that you didn't believe it was
necessary for a person to actually be a member of the Communist Party
to be a Communist in his views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But that I considered it something less than actually
accurate to call such a person a Communist that went on being----
Senator COOPER. Other than the persons you have named in your testimony
as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to
your house, who talked to Lee Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no one other than the people I have mentioned, sir.
Senator COOPER. Knowing that he was as you have described in your own
words, a Marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about
that, as being in your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, as I have described in testimony, I asked myself
whether or not he might be a spy. I was not at all worried about
ideology contrary to my own or with which I disagreed, and it looked to
me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls
Marxism, indeed nearly a religion.
But not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs.
Senator COOPER. Thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the
employ of the Soviet Union, were you concerned about the fact that such
person who might be a spy or an agent of the Soviet Union was living in
your house?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if you recall my testimony I concluded that he was
not, and also I was pleased that the FBI had come and I felt that they
would worry about that, and that I didn't need to worry about any risk
to me of public censure for my befriending such a person.
Senator COOPER. You told about the newspapers and periodicals that he
received and read.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did he also have any books that he read while he was at
your house?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall his reading books while he was at my house.
He watched television a great deal but I don't recall his reading books.
Senator COOPER. You said that he did not have very ample means,
financial means.
Were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers
sent to him from Russia, England, New York?