Mr. JENNER. Even after further reflection last night your recollection
is as you have already stated?
Mrs. PAINE. That there was an occasion that we were going in with a
Russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and I drove
him to Ross Street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the
employment office.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
What occasion was this?
Mrs. PAINE. What day?
Mr. JENNER. Day, yes; please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall but I would be fairly certain it was a
Monday.
Mr. JENNER. And had he been out at your home over the weekend?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; that is my best recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it after he had become employed with the Book
Depository?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he was on his way to the employment office. This was
his purpose.
Mr. JENNER. So it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the
matter of employment by the Texas Book Depository had arisen?
Mrs. PAINE. I would judge that it has to have been on the 14th, which
was Monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at Mrs.
Roberts about this.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. But I may be wrong about that, but it is my best
recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Did the conversation at Mrs. Roberts take place on the 15th
of October?
Mrs. PAINE. No; on the 14th.
Mr. JENNER. On the 14th. That was what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Monday.
Mr. JENNER. Did you drive him into Dallas on that day?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't think when else it could have been.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your recollection that is probably the
day then?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you indicate--did Marina accompany you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and
seeing his apartment or room?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion at any time, Mrs. Paine, in your
home or otherwise, with Marina or with Lee, as to the appearance of
his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like?
Mrs. PAINE. The only thing I recall is that he described it as more
comfortable than the $7 room he had occupied, told me the cost of it,
said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the
refrigerator.
Mr. JENNER. But other than that he didn't describe it?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for
curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any
additional appointments?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no such conversation at any time.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with Dr. Froelich Rainey?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. He is--what is his position with the University of
Pennsylvania. He has a position with the University of Pennsylvania
Music Department, has he not?
Mrs. PAINE. He is the curator, the head man, as I understand it.
Mr. JENNER. You are acquainted with his wife Penelope?
Mrs. PAINE. I am.
Mr. JENNER. Does Penelope speak Russian fluently?
Mrs. PAINE. She has a very good command of the language. I think she
has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion to inquire of Mrs. Rainey as to
whether she might assist you with your Russian studies?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the
role of tutor. She did some years ago loan me a record which I taped
that was in Russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the
east.
Mr. JENNER. You mean, summer, not fall.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, it was, yes, August probably or early September that
I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall during the course of your summer trip
before you went, that is you wound up in New Orleans from that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. So we are talking about the same trip.
Mrs. PAINE. That is the same trip.
Mr. JENNER. You did see her?
Mrs. PAINE. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Where in Philadelphia?
Mrs. PAINE. At her home.
Mr. JENNER. Where is her home?
Mrs. PAINE. Her home is not far from the residence where I was staying
in Paoli. It is suburban Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have occasion then to report to her that--about
Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And advise her in that respect, that she was married to an
American who is now residing in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say to her that the, I will call the, lady, Marina,
but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital
difficulties with her husband.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And would you state what your remarks were to Mrs. Rainey
in that connection? That is the treatment of Marina by Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly what I said as to the treatment,
but that Marina was unhappy, and that I thought she should have some
alternative to living with him, and that I would probably, when down
there, offer for her to live at my home. She asked me what Michael
thought of that, and I said we had discussed it but that Michael and
I were not living together, and this was news to Mrs. Rainey, and
concerned her deeply.
And I said that I was lonely. I recall one important thing in what I
said to Mrs. Rainey, that I never said in conversation to anyone else,
that I was worried about offending Lee, that if offended, or if he felt
I was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation,
that he might be angry with me, and that I didn't want to subject
myself or my children to possible harm from him.
She is the only person to whom I mentioned my thought that he might
possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not
a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as
having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of
violence in relation to me.
Mr. JENNER. To the point of physical violence in relation to you?
Mrs. PAINE. In relation to me in this situation and I wanted to be
perfectly sure before I made any offer definite that he was not, in
fact, angry at my offer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall visiting your sister Sylvia?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; indeed.
Mr. JENNER. You were there about 3 days?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina when you were with your sister?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And in substance did you say to your sister that you
intended to go to New Orleans in the course of your trip within about
2 weeks to pick up Marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an
American, and she was to live with you in your home in Texas?
Did you say that much to her?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I probably said it depended on whether she wanted to
go.
Mr. JENNER. Other than that have I stated the substance in that
connection?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to her that Marina wanted to leave her
husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his
husband's role was concerned?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What did you say, did you say anything of similar import?
Mrs. PAINE. Similar?
Mr. JENNER. That is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that Marina
wished to leave Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I would guess that was her interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in this connection, please?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall exactly.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to
your sister as to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you say in that connection.
Mrs. PAINE. My opinion of Lee Oswald was quite negative all the way up
to----
Mr. JENNER. This is what you have told your sister now, that is what I
want.
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall exactly what I told my sister at all.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. I talked with virtually everyone I saw this summer, and
there were a great many people, about this friend because it was
important to me. I have already testified that I thought Lee didn't
care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the
spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until I was in
New Orleans that I thought he cared at all.
Mr. JENNER. I am just confining myself to this period. During this
period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a
negative opinion on your part with respect to Lee Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. Indeed.
Mr. JENNER. Is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. It might have been more or less forceful in that expression
of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were
talking.
Mrs. PAINE. I would say that my sister's reaction to what I said was
more forceful than what I said.
Mr. JENNER. But you did express a negative opinion.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You testified that--are you acquainted with a Dr. Carl Hyde?
Mrs. PAINE. He is my brother.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss Marina and Lee with him when you visited
there in September of 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife
where I told quite a lot about the contact that I had had with Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did you state to either or both of them that Marina's
husband was a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. That is possible. I think it is more likely that I referred
to him as a Marxist.
Mr. JENNER. Now, what is the distinction between a Marxist and a
Communist in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. Distinction is not clear to me, but I judged that Lee felt
there was a distinction as he----
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what Lee thought a Marxist
was as distinguished from a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no clear impression.
Mr. JENNER. If I suggested the possibility of, that a Marxist tenet was
the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process?
Mrs. PAINE. This is not something I ever heard from him.
Mr. JENNER. Was it anything that you ever thought of?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. A concept that you ever had?
Mrs. PAINE. In describing Marxism?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss with Lee why he was--he always took
care to distinguish to say that he was a Marxist as distinguished from
a Communist?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I never did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey
by that description?
Mrs. PAINE. He intended to convey that he was more pure, I felt, that
was my impression.
Mr. JENNER. More pure than what?
Mrs. PAINE. Than a Communist.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of
them that Lee had not permitted her to learn English, that is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. And that Marina was experiencing marital difficulties with
Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. Very probably.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever say that Marina did not share her husband's
political views?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of
them?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the
feeling that Marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed
toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those
difficulties resulted?
Mrs. PAINE. I didn't have that feeling.
Mr. JENNER. You did not.
What feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one?
Mrs. PAINE. All the time I knew her or at least any references from
her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that
it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their
difficulties.
Mr. JENNER. And that she was desirous of attempting to do so?
Mrs. PAINE. She was desirous of attempting to do so though still
leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude
that she couldn't.
She by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on
her, but that, I would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather
than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it.
Mr. JENNER. Have you completed your answer?
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Did Marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or
not she felt, after she came to the United States and saw Lee Oswald
in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found
him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor
background?
Did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever commenting in that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the
United States?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall her ever saying that.