(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite
eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the
ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. It didn't occur to me that it was.
Mr. JENNER. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?
Mrs. PAINE. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the
gentleman.
Mr. JENNER. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your
part to have a question in your mind?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the
first I saw him taking that much interest.
Mr. JENNER. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would
you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do
during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all
three of you.
Mrs. PAINE. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the
children, having all small children, all of us having small children.
Mr. JENNER. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you
be good enough to tell us?
Mrs. PAINE. When he was not present?
Mr. JENNER. That is right.
Mrs. PAINE. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend.
He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two
girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for
girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen
him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best
of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I
loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was
about. But I might if I saw it.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a book on any political subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Representative FORD. Was it an English book?
Mrs. PAINE. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of
Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember.
It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something
like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would
have read that, anyway.
Representative FORD. Was it a book that you recall having had with you
that summer? Ten Days----
Mrs. PAINE. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for
sure whether I have that one.
Representative FORD. Ten Days That Shook the World?
Mrs. PAINE. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection
of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they
included history and literature and English.
Representative FORD. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian
at Saint Marks School in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of
things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from
many points of view regarding Soviet life.
Representative FORD. I interrupted you.
Mr. JENNER. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during
those 2 days and 3 nights.
Mrs. PAINE. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and
stayed while they were done and went back.
Mr. JENNER. You and Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina
and I went.
Mr. JENNER. He remained home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they visit while you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did they come there?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer,
with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or
Monday.
No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether,
because Sunday was the day before we left.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no idea. She speaks natively.
Mr. JENNER. But she does have a command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in
college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly
overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.
Mr. JENNER. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.
Mrs. PAINE. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently
and had slides that she had taken that summer.
Mr. JENNER. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no
command of the Russian language?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to
contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew
Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. PAINE. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek
out someone who could talk to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as
far as you knew?
Mrs. PAINE. I would be certain she didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Have you described for us generally the course of events in
the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of
Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by
then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat
on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and
other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was
another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.
We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it
seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and
we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther
than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't
going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only
my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was
open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.
Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and
visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one
and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering
something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to
cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect
that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it
was at least a gesture.
Mr. JENNER. Then there was no financial help given you?
Mrs. PAINE. There was no financial help.
Mr. JENNER. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?
Mrs. PAINE. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any
small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her
in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to
New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your
acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially
or anything at all to you?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he never offered anything to me.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?
Mrs. PAINE. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that
when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get
an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards
renting a furnished apartment for his family.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in
fact ever give you any money?
Mrs. PAINE. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give
Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other
occasions?
Mrs. PAINE. There was that one incident in April.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time
close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some
shoes.
Mr. JENNER. Shoes for herself, or her children?
Mrs. PAINE. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not
certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday
afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.
Mr. JENNER. That is you girls planned to do that?
Mrs. PAINE. She and I did; yes.
Representative FORD. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the
process of packing of the car?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee
Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any
sympathy for him at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he
might not be seeing Marina any more?
Mrs. PAINE. I had no feeling of that whatever.
Mr. JENNER. None whatsoever.
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in
Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he
mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the
investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the
presence of Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the
subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. About what he would do after we left?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?
Mrs. PAINE. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for
work, or possibly to Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or
friends in either of those towns?
Mrs. PAINE. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in
Houston.
Mr. JENNER. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?
Mrs. PAINE. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he
said or which might have been said in your presence that after you
girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look----
Mrs. PAINE. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we
left.
Mr. JENNER. Promptly?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You had that definite impression?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to
Houston, or what was the other town?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly Philadelphia.
Mr. JENNER. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was
there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any
respect?
Mrs. PAINE. Not at any time nor any respect.
Mr. JENNER. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything
on the subject of Mexico?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this
interim period?
Mrs. PAINE. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I
think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee
rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about
any particular time, he would see Marina again.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. PAINE. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then
again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly
see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here.
As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that
indicated his claim to 1 year residence in Texas, I can't remember
just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to,
shall I say that you have gone, or how can I--what shall I say about
the husband, where is the husband?
Mr. JENNER. Do the best in your own words.
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for
work or something? What shall I say about you?
Mr. JENNER. This is Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. This is in English now, this one English conversation.
Mr. JENNER. By you?
Mrs. PAINE. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I
asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?