Mrs. PAINE. That he had worked with Stovall.
Mr. JENNER. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?
Mrs. PAINE. And the necessary residence.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Did you take that document with you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you do with it?
Mrs. PAINE. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it
to him.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. PAINE. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of
Marina Oswald's second child.
Mr. JENNER. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina,
if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could
receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no
cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.
Mr. JENNER. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. What arrangement?
Mr. JENNER. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered
some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you
vacationed in the summer of 1963.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You visited various members of your family up north?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that
correct?
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it was the 27th of July.
Mr. JENNER. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where
you visited, without telling us what you did.
Mrs. PAINE. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of
Massachusetts.
Mr. JENNER. Were you driving in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. With your children?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?
Mrs. PAINE. How detailed do you want to be?
Mr. JENNER. Just tell us whom you visited is all.
Mrs. PAINE. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one
night.
Mr. JENNER. She is an old friend of yours?
Mrs. PAINE. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went
on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs,
until the early part of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Is that Paoli, Pa.?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?
Mrs. PAINE. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me
if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.
Mrs. PAINE. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.
Mr. JENNER. Was he at one time an actuary?
Mrs. PAINE. What does actuary mean?
Mr. JENNER. A man who computes the probabilities and works in
connection with----
Mrs. PAINE. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.
Mr. JENNER. For what company, please?
Mrs. PAINE. The Nationwide Insurance Company.
Mr. JENNER. Where is their main office?
Mrs. PAINE. In Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother
during that summer period?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island,
and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in
Columbus, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. At Columbus, she was living there then?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see your sister on that trip?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. And where did you see her?
Mrs. PAINE. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there
at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in
Baltimore.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?
Mrs. PAINE. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. What is his occupation or business?
Mrs. PAINE. He works with Social Security.
Mr. JENNER. For the State or the United States Government?
Mrs. PAINE. For the United States Government.
Mr. JENNER. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.
Mr. JENNER. That is your brother, the physician?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia
area, while I was at Paoli.
Mr. JENNER. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the
sense I would mean friends?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or members of the Friends Society?
Mrs. PAINE. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And
then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond,
Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mrs. PAINE. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?
Mr. JENNER. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?
Mrs. PAINE. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my
home in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with
Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your
going along, had you?
Mrs. PAINE. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New
Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose?
Mrs. PAINE. To visit. And to talk.
Mr. JENNER. About what?
Mrs. PAINE. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house
for the birth of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return
or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming
to be with you for the birth of the child?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining
you on a semipermanent basis?
Mrs. PAINE. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.
Mr. JENNER. You arrived in New Orleans?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. The 20th of September.
Mr. McCLOY. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am
anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you
paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association
with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. You did?
Mrs. PAINE. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.
Mr. JENNER. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject,
but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this
morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.
Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the
morning or afternoon?
Mrs. PAINE. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.
Mr. JENNER. And you went directly to their home, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What did you find when you reached the home?
Mrs. PAINE. I was expected. They had groceries bought.
Mr. JENNER. Who was home?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.
Mr. JENNER. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is
what day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. Is a Friday.
Mr. JENNER. 1963?
Mrs. PAINE. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2
nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At
one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came
and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. This
was after I had made a telephone call to her.
Mr. JENNER. These daughters were adults or were they children?
Mrs. PAINE. The daughters were grown daughters.
Mr. JENNER. Grown?
Mrs. PAINE. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been
studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role
that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some
slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip
to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.
Mr. JENNER. That the girls recognized?
Mrs. PAINE. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did,
at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed
in good spirits that weekend. I found him--he made a much better
impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had
seen him, which was in May.
I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was
concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could
go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the
possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through
Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and
pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.
I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his
being interested in having it that way.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3
days?
Mrs. PAINE. Three nights, two days.
Mr. JENNER. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion
between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee
on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with
you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child
in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee did participate in those discussions?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was
there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and
would be seeking a position?
Mrs. PAINE. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. PAINE. We did have one short conversation and this was in English.
I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.
Mr. JENNER. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted
himself to speak with you in English?
Mrs. PAINE. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application
was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't
know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was
arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And
he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"
"Yes, she knew it."
Mr. JENNER. I want you to finish the conversation.
Mrs. PAINE. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of
what he had done as I ever got from him.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.
I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give
your reaction.
Mrs. PAINE. That was the end of it.
Mr. JENNER. That was the end?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's
activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mrs. PAINE. I had not heard of any such activities.
The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the
name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the
assassination.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he
say?
Mrs. PAINE. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba
literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused
some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.
Mr. JENNER. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned
that as a possible----
Mrs. PAINE. No, on the contrary.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?
Mrs. PAINE. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost
his job before this happened.
Mr. JENNER. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba
incident?
Mrs. PAINE. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance
where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in
which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and
his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United
States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?
Mrs. PAINE. No; nothing of that nature was said.
Mr. JENNER. That was never discussed in your presence?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your
presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they
weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This
is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you
raised it, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular
conversation, have you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations
between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time
was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had
been when I first was in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina
and Lee when you were there in the spring?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that that had continued during all the time you were in
New Orleans. You found the situation different?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On your return in the fall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have already related the incident about touring
Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?
Mrs. PAINE. During that weekend, yes; those days.
Mr. JENNER. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day.
It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?
Mrs. PAINE. It was early evening.
Mr. JENNER. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?
Mrs. PAINE. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been
cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put
away. And I believe he did some packing.
Mr. JENNER. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with
Marina?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with
the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of
the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him
at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by
preference to having me handle it.
Mr. JENNER. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction.
Did he seem eager to do the packing?
Mrs. PAINE. He did, distinctly.
Mr. JENNER. Distinctly eager?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and
we left Tuesday morning.
Mr. JENNER. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you
and Marina were on tour?
Mrs. PAINE. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only
arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open
on Sunday?
Mr. JENNER. Bourbon Street is open all the time.