Mr. JENNER. Now, which of those two that you marked with the little
green mark most closely resembles the man you saw?
Mr. PIZZO. Right here--but he seems older here--he was a little short
guy, the way I figure.
Mr. JENNER. Put an "X" above him. The witness has put a cross--a
horizontal cross line, through the other line as indicating the man
who appears most like the person he saw. Your feeling is that the man
you have indicated with an "X" seems somewhat taller than the man you
recall as having seen at the door of your office prior to November 22,
1963. Is that correct, sir?
Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--about 5 feet 8 inches, something like that,
what I recall--or maybe 5 feet 8-1/2 inches. Bogard is pretty tall and
it seemed like the fellow was a lot shorter than he was.
Mr. JENNER. And that's what led you to put the marker over the head of
the man on the extreme right shown in that picture, Pizzo Exhibit 453-A?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes--that's right--it's a downhill photo.
Mr. JENNER. I have one that's taken more at a level. We will mark it
Pizzo Exhibit 453-B.
(Instrument referred to marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit No.
453-B, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. Exhibiting that photograph, does there appear on it anybody
who closely resembles the person you recall as having been at the door
of your office on the occasion you have described, and if there is, put
a mark on it.
Mr. PIZZO. Gosh, the man I saw--I want you to know--didn't have that
much hair, nor did he have as much hair as these boys in this picture.
Mr. JENNER. The man you saw did not have as much hair as is shown on
Pizzo Commission Exhibit 453-A, which you have marked with a cross?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right, nor as this picture right here--right there.
Mr. JENNER. Or the man on Pizzo Exhibit 453-B--appears to have more
hair than the man you saw at the door of your office?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And the men depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and
451 also, in each instance, has more hair than the man you saw at the
door of your office?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What about the man over whose head you placed a cross on
Pizzo Exhibit 453-A, that is, in respect to the amount of hair?
Mr. PIZZO. This is more or less the hairline.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the witness is pointing to the man over where there is
a single vertical stripe, over his head--green, and has dark glasses
on. It is his hairline to which you have now adverted?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the other man has the cross over his head--you wanted
to say something about that?
Mr. PIZZO. You said it exactly--that resembles--the face resembles him
more than the hairline--it's sort of a "=V=" hairline.
Mr. JENNER. So, your problem has been that the hairline and the man
with the single stripe above his head more resembles him than the man
you saw at the door of your office, but the physiognomy or the facial
features of the man over whose head you have placed the cross more
resembles the man you saw?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes. I had just wondered if the pictures that I have seen of
Oswald might have----
Mr. JENNER. Might have colored your judgment now?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It's always possible, you know.
Mr. PIZZO. But that hairline is a thing--that's the thing that hit me
first when I saw his picture on television.
Mr. JENNER. When you saw Oswald's picture on television?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and in the paper. It was the hairline and the physical
features of it--a clean face with the high forehead and the "=V="
shaped hairline, and it's easy to remember that because of the T-shirt,
the bare look he had because of the tight T-shirt.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis has come in and he is representing the attorney
general's office of the State of Texas. This is Mr. Robert Davis. They
are conducting a court of inquiry on this subject.
Mr. PIZZO. I see, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, the witness has just emphasized the thing he
recalls most about the appearance or physiognomy of the man he saw at
the door of his office a week or 10 days prior to November 22 when one
of the employees he was supervising, Mr. Bogard, brought a prospective
customer who seemed to be interested in a Comet Caliente, Mr. Pizzo was
then the general sales manager of McAllister Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. PIZZO. I was assistant sales manager.
Mr. JENNER. You are now the sales manager?
Mr. PIZZO. I--of Hamilton Chrysler.
Mr. JENNER. I have shown him some photographs. He was impressed, he
said, that the man he now recalls having seen on the occasion--he was
impressed particularly with his hairline.
Mr. PIZZO. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that the hairline of the man indicated on Pizzo
Exhibit 453-A, over whose head he has put the green vertical stripe,
has the hairline, but the man over whose head he has placed the cross
has more of the facial likeness.
The person or persons depicted on Commission Exhibits Nos. 453 and 451,
he says have a resemblance, but it is in his opinion not the man, and
in any event the man on those two exhibits has more hair and does not
have the particular hairline that impressed you on this occasion?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Am I fairly stating your testimony?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I am just trying to summarize for Mr. Davis.
Mr. PIZZO. Thank you.
Mr. JENNER. I now show you a document we will mark as Pizzo Exhibit
453-C.
(The instrument referred to was marked by the reporter as Pizzo Exhibit
No. 453-C, for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. This is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that I'm about to
show you and before I show it to you, may I say that the important
thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment,
and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself
back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man
at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if
it is--tell us, one way or the other.
Mr. PIZZO. All right. That I will do. [Examining instrument referred
to.]
Mr. JENNER. The greatest service you can give to us and to the country
and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can.
Mr. PIZZO. He certainly don't have the hairline I was describing--it
isn't the hairline I was describing.
Mr. JENNER. This was taken the afternoon of November 22 in the Dallas
City Police showup.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Counsel Davis and the witness,
Mr. Pizzo, off the record.)
Mr. JENNER. Back on the record. You recall him as being more in the
neighborhood of what--5 feet 8 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, more or less,
or more or less?
Mr. PIZZO. Between 5 feet 7 inches and 5 foot 8-1/2 inches with sort of
a round forehead and that =V= shape is the thing that I remember the
most.
Mr. JENNER. A widow's peak?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; but very weak.
Mr. JENNER. Very weak?
Mr. PIZZO. Very weak--not the bushy type that I see in the picture.
Well, if I'm not sure--then--I have to say that he is not the one--if
you want the absolute statement.
Mr. JENNER. I just want your best judgment--I don't want you to say he
isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. It is
better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving
us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for
in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. Now,
you don't find the hairline?
Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't. From that picture I don't.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; from any of the three pictures, except the one with
the man with the stripe over his head?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right--he has the sort of a hairline that I recollect.
Mr. JENNER. That's the man with the one stripe over his head?
Mr. PIZZO. I'll have to take a look again--this is the face--it
resembles.
Mr. JENNER. The witness is now pointing to the man that has the cross
over it.
Mr. PIZZO. This is the hairline that I remember.
Mr. JENNER. That is the man on the extreme right with the dark glasses,
having a single vertical stripe above his head?
Mr. PIZZO. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And that picture of Mr. Oswald that I showed the witness,
Pizzo Exhibit 453-C, in that picture, he does not have the hairline; is
that correct?
Mr. PIZZO. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. What about his facial expression--features?
Mr. PIZZO. There's resemblance there. May I say something?
Mr. JENNER. Surely.
Mr. PIZZO. All the time that I have been thinking about it--because
the FBI did tell me that they would call me sometime later and would I
appear, and I said--yes, I would. I thought about it and the thing that
stuck in my mind was always that hairline--the kind of balding right
here--the smooth line.
Mr. JENNER. Above each temple?
Mr. PIZZO. And that face resembles. Now, I'll tell you, if he has--I've
never seen the man in person, but if he has a small mouth it would fit
about the description that I would give. I couldn't say absolutely sure
that this was the man that was standing in front of my door.
Mr. JENNER. And the witness is now referring to Pizzo Exhibit 453-C. I
offer Pizzo Exhibits 453-A, 453-B, and 453-C in evidence.
Mr. PIZZO. May I say something else?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; please.
Mr. PIZZO. I have called Al Bogard into the office after the first
interview by the FBI, and I have asked him--I says, "Now, it is easy
for me to start imagining things because of the emotional situation
right now, Al. I want you to tell me the truth. Am I right when I say
I do remember that situation?" He says, "Yes," and then he went into
some more detail--"of course, don't you remember?" I didn't only ask
him once, I asked him again a week later, and he said the same thing
and that might have had some influence on it. Now, whether that's the
man he brought to my door--right now looking at that picture I couldn't
swear to it--I wouldn't want to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a fair type of an appraisal that we want. We
want your best judgment. You don't recall the incident that Bogard
related to you later that sought to stimulate your recollection about
somebody who drove this automobile wildly--you don't recall that having
been said to you on the afternoon?
Mr. PIZZO. No; I don't--no; I don't. I asked him about it and he told
me. I'm the one that was after him to tell me--to help me remember.
You see, I'm the one that kept asking him about, "Would you help me
remember the situation." The more he talked about it, the more I
remember that particular situation, but only to the point of "He needs
$200 or $300," and he didn't have it at the time but he will have it in
a couple of weeks. That's the things that I do remember at the door.
Mr. JENNER. And you do remember this man had a white T-shirt on--the
half-sleeve type?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes. Sleeve type.
Mr. JENNER. With which you are familiar and wore yourself in the
Marines except yours was colored green?
Mr. PIZZO. It was green--that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, he has already related to us the effort he made
when this incident came to his attention late in the day on the 22d of
November of seeking to find Bogard's card on which he is alleged to
have written Oswald's name on the reverse side and was to attempt to
obtain a writeup sheet, which is what the salesmen normally write up
with respect to a prospect, even to the extent of his climbing into the
large refuse container in which all paper and waste paper baskets are
thrown the following day, and he was not able to find either of those,
though they made two examinations and emptied out the large container
twice--you did it yourself?
Mr. PIZZO. I did it myself and once with the FBI. I believe it was the
man from Louisiana--one of the FBI men.
Mr. JENNER. You were interviewed by Carter Hayden and Griffin on
January 8, was it either one of those? On January 8, 1964?
Mr. PIZZO. I was interviewed by two pairs of FBI men--it was
immediately after the assassination, which was probably Monday or
Tuesday.
Mr. JENNER. The first time?
Mr. PIZZO. The first time; but it wasn't January 8.
Mr. JENNER. Was that the last one--the last interview--January 8?
Mr. PIZZO. This might have been the last one, although I remember two
other men came in from Chicago--one was from Chicago--one--I believe
there were three, no, I'm sorry, it was the same two twice and then
another team.
Mr. JENNER. Could I ask you this--knowing Mr. Bogard as you do, is he
a man who on occasion departed from his usual practice of making out a
prospect sheet?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He sometimes departed from that practice?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; he would write them on just about anything--especially
business cards and put them in his desk.
Mr. JENNER. Even though, as you recall, he had this man at the
customer's booth, where there would be a supply of these writeup
sheets, I assume?
Mr. PIZZO. He would ordinarily write the man up after the demonstration
ride.
Mr. JENNER. He would not?
Mr. PIZZO. He would--he would ordinarily bring the man in and write
him up after a demonstration ride if you can sell him a car. We never
did find a writeup sheet--he said he never had one and he said he just
wrote the prospect's name on the back of a card and I asked him, "How
come, you usually write the thing on an order pad?" And we tried to
work from there, and he said, "I just didn't."
Mr. JENNER. I have attempted to locate Mr. Bogard, just by calling
around this morning, but I haven't been able to run him down yet. If
you get any lead on where I might reach him, I would appreciate your
telling me. I don't mean to suggest that he is trying to escape or
anything, but quite the contrary. I just haven't been able to reach him.
Mr. PIZZO. He's working around here somewhere. I believe, according
to his application when he gave it to me, he was a sales manager in
Louisiana and he owned a liquor store.
Mr. JENNER. Well, he was the owner of the Bent Elbow, wherever that is,
here.
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; and his name isn't used--one of the salesmen sold him
the place, the salesman that's still working there sold him the place.
I guess he wanted out from under it and just found Bogard to do so, and
when Bogard was bound to own a beer place, my boss immediately fired
him. He won't have it. You cannot have outside interests with a dealer
development company because factory and dealer development won't stand
for it. You have to work primarily for the dealership, and he was fired
for that and many other reasons, little reasons that, believe me, have
no concern with this.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions for Mr. Pizzo?
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, we appreciate very much your coming in and I
know it was of considerable inconvenience at the month end and you have
a lot of salesmen who want their money or pay.
Mr. PIZZO. I told my boss today--he says, "Do you have to go?" I said,
"I have to go, but really, if I wasn't so patriotic, they would have to
come after me, I told him."
Mr. JENNER. We appreciate it very much. You have a right, Mr. Pizzo, to
read over your deposition if you wish and to sign it--this deposition I
have taken of you, and if you care to exercise that right and make any
corrections you wish, Miss Oliver will have this probably near the end
of the week and you can call in and ask Mr. Sanders, the U.S. attorney,
or for one of us if we are around--they will refer you to us anyhow, or
you have a right to waive that, as you see fit. It is a privilege you
may exercise if you wish to.
Mr. PIZZO. You mean what I have said here today?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIZZO. I believe everything I have said today--I will be glad to
sign it.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have to--it is entirely up to you, if you see fit.
Mr. PIZZO. When would I get this deposition?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it will be ready for you to read--Miss Oliver will
have it toward the end of the week.
Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you will call in, she can tell you if it is ready and
advise you if it isn't ready and then when it will be ready.
Mr. PIZZO. Well, I wish you gentlemen a lot of luck.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.