The testimony of Frank Pizzo was taken at 3:35 p.m., on March 31, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, would you stand up and be sworn?
Mr. PIZZO. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about
to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth?
Mr. PIZZO. I do.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pizzo, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the
legal staff of the President's Commission. You received a letter from
Mr. Rankin, the general counsel, or did you?
Mr. PIZZO. No, I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Then, I'll tell you about it. The Commission
to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy was appointed
by President Johnson under Executive Order 11130, which in turn
was pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution No. 137 of the Congress,
and the Commission was authorized and appointed for the purpose of
investigating the assassination of the late President, John F. Kennedy,
on the 22d of November, 1963, and to report all the facts that are
pertinent to that tragic event that we can discover.
We are particularly interested in persons who did or might have had
some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and Marina Oswald, and it is our
understanding that you may have some information in that area and in
the course of conducting your business back in the fall of 1963, and
pursuant to my telephone call to you this morning, you have kindly come
down here, voluntarily, have you?
Mr. PIZZO. I have.
Mr. JENNER. You have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI, haven't
you?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And, I know you are busy as it is particularly busy at the
end of the month in your business, and I'll see if I can't expedite
this.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?
Mr. PIZZO. No; I am a native of Providence, R.I.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you resided in Dallas?
Mr. PIZZO. Around May 15 in 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Take me back, say, to 1960--about yourself, or start with
1960; what were you doing then?
Mr. PIZZO. Well, in 1960, I was in the automobile business in
Providence, R.I., with my own company.
Mr. JENNER. Automobile sales business?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, used cars--Auto Village, Inc., in Providence, R.I. We
came here in, let's see, February of 1963--we came to Lufkin.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "we," you mean you, your wife, and your family?
Mr. PIZZO. My wife and my child, a 5-year-old boy. We came to Lufkin,
Tex. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. She is a native of Lufkin, Tex.?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, and we came down here to open up a business, which we
did. We opened a business in Lufkin--she opened a beauty shop and I
opened a used-car lot, and we were there a couple or 3 months and I
came to Dallas to buy cars and I went to McAllister Lincoln-Mercury,
who is now my boss, and owns Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth, and while I
was there trying to buy cars, I wound up coming to work for him.
Mr. JENNER. And the McAllister agency is located in downtown Dallas?
Mr. PIZZO. It is Downtown Lincoln-Mercury--it used to be McAllister
Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. JENNER. And now it is called Downtown Lincoln-Mercury?
Mr. PIZZO. That's correct--Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. JENNER. Has that been a recent change in name?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, it has.
Mr. JENNER. I'm just curious, because I tried to find it in the phone
book this morning and I couldn't find Downtown Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. PIZZO. That's right, it has been--let's see, we changed the
name--the name was changed just before the assassination. You see,
it's a factory franchise dealership and they changed it to Downtown
Lincoln-Mercury.
Mr. JENNER. I was looking in a May 1963, directory.
Mr. PIZZO. That's it.
Mr. JENNER. That would be McAllister Lincoln-Mercury at that time?
Mr. PIZZO. When I went to work at that time--yes. Now, I stayed on when
Mr. McAllister went on to Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth and I stayed on as
assistant manager at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury. We were working actually
for the factory, because they were running the store--they had no
president.
Mr. JENNER. In which of the two agencies do you now work as of today?
Mr. PIZZO. Hamilton Chrysler-Plymouth.
Mr. JENNER. And you are what position there?
Mr. PIZZO. Sales manager.
Mr. JENNER. And you were what position--what position did you have with
McAllister?
Mr. PIZZO. You mean at Downtown Lincoln-Mercury or McAllister?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIZZO. Assistant manager.
Mr. JENNER. You were assistant manager?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When did that work commence--when did you start to work
with McAllister?
Mr. PIZZO. Around the 14th or 15th of May.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an employee under your supervision and
direction at that time by the name of Bogard?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, I did.
Mr. JENNER. What is his full name?
Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard.
Mr. JENNER. Albert G. Bogard?
Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard, that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And has he also worked over at the Hamilton agency?
Mr. PIZZO. No, sir; he came from Ed Maher Ford.
Mr. JENNER. That's M-a-h-e-r (spelling)?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes--two words. When he applied for the job, he was working
at Maher's.
Mr. JENNER. Some of these salesmen are inclined to shift about, I guess?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes--if they like the looks of a car this year--it might
look a little better on this make of car, and you know, to them, it is
all money, and they are going to move around, but a real good person
will stay. He will stay in one place and build up a clientele.
Mr. JENNER. With repeat sales?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right. These boys--most of them live on floor traffic.
Mr. JENNER. They wait for people to come in?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; they are not real working automobile salesmen.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, I'll summarize--you are a native-born
American and a native of Rhode Island, Providence?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir; and I served in the U.S. Marine Corps in World War
II.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business in Providence and you
and your wife in due course came here to Dallas and she is a native of
Texas, as you recited?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were in the used car business there, and what was
that town again?
Mr. PIZZO. Lufkin.
Mr. JENNER. Could you spell it?
Mr. PIZZO. L-u-f-k-i-n (spelling).
Mr. JENNER. And then you became associated with Downtown
Lincoln-Mercury?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In May of 1963? Was there an incident that occurred
sometime in 1963, but prior to November 22, 1963, involving somebody
who might have been Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; there was an incident.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about the incident, first, and then we
will become oriented?
Mr. PIZZO. All right--of course, at the time nothing was thought of
the incident because it was just a natural sales setup we had. Our
salesmen, when they can't sell a customer a car, they run to the
manager and tell him, they'll say, "He's going to leave."
Mr. JENNER. And that manager in this instance was you?
Mr. PIZZO. It was me.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIZZO. And, I asked to see the man--no, I didn't ask to see him
personally--no, I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the salesman?
Mr. PIZZO. Albert G. Bogard.
Mr. JENNER. The man we have identified here?
Mr. PIZZO. That's right, sir. He brought the man to me--it was quite
late in the evening--it wasn't evening, because it was dark.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember what day of the week it was?
Mr. PIZZO. I really don't--really don't.
Mr. JENNER. It was a weekday?
Mr. PIZZO. It was a weekday.
Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday?
Mr. PIZZO. No; we are not open on Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Are you open on Saturday?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It could have been any day in the week?
Mr. PIZZO. It could have been--it seems to me like it was the middle of
the week, towards the weekend, but I couldn't swear to that.
Mr. JENNER. What month was it?
Mr. PIZZO. It was November--now.
Mr. JENNER. November 1963?
Mr. PIZZO. November 1963--yes; I'm pretty sure it was November. Now,
that I can recollect--it was November. When he brought the man to me,
he said, "This man will have some money. He doesn't have the down
payment," because when we were trying to sell the man a car, he asked
me how much money he needed to buy this car and I said, "That man needs
around $200 or $300."
Mr. JENNER. This is Bogard asking you?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; the salesman asking me. He asked me that and I said it
was around $200 or $300, and so he went back to his booth to work on
the customer.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, at this point, you had not yet seen the customer?
Mr. PIZZO. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Bogard had come to you as assistant sales manager,
to find out the minimum, let us say, of the down payment?
Mr. PIZZO. Of the down payment.
Mr. JENNER. And he had a man who was interested in what make of car?
Mr. PIZZO. Now, that's something that I do not remember because there
was no writeup sheet that I could go back to to find out exactly what
car. I believe it was a Comet.
Mr. JENNER. Have you made an effort to find a writeup sheet?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; we did--all of us did.
Mr. JENNER. And you discovered what?
Mr. PIZZO. I discovered nothing--no writeup sheet, but the incident
that happened later--I'll get to it, if you want me to get to it now,
I'll go to it now.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I think probably the best thing for you to do
would be for you to tell us in your own words, and I'll try not to
interrupt you.
Mr. PIZZO. All right, sir. He brought the customer to me, but previous
to that he had taken the customer out on a demonstration ride.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, this occurred at McAllister Downtown Lincoln
Mercury?
Mr. PIZZO. That's correct. I think it's better if we do call it
that--Downtown McAllister Lincoln Mercury, because the exact day of the
change of the name, I don't remember, you see.
Now, this was previous to the assassination--I would say between a
period of a week and a half to 2 weeks, and I would guess I would be
right. After the man was worked on to buy a car----
Mr. JENNER. By Bogard.
Mr. PIZZO. By Bogard, Mr. Bogard brought the man to my office and I'm
sitting like you are and he brought him to the door.
Mr. JENNER. Was this the same day?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; this was within 2 hours, within a period of 2 hours.
Mr. JENNER. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours.
Mr. PIZZO. This all occurred within a period of 2 hours and he brought
the man to the door.
Mr. JENNER. What door?
Mr. PIZZO. My office door, and I get up from behind my desk and walk
up to the door, and he says, "He doesn't have the down payment, but he
will have $200 or $300 in a couple or 3 weeks."
Mr. JENNER. And this conversation you are now relating occurred after
Bogard had demonstrated the car?
Mr. PIZZO. Had demonstrated the car.
Mr. JENNER. And had come to you and asked for the minimum?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; for the minimum.
Mr. JENNER. And then he had gone back to the customer?
Mr. PIZZO. And the customer told him he didn't have the down payment.
Mr. JENNER. And then he brought the customer to the door of the office?
Mr. PIZZO. Right. So, it was just 2 or 3 minutes--I was very busy, we
had other deals going, and I said, "Okay," and just let it go at that.
Mr. JENNER. What did that mean--"okay"?
Mr. PIZZO. There was nothing we could do with the customer if he
didn't have the down payment. I said, "Okay," to Al Bogard, which
means--follow him up, use him as a prospect, call him later--that's
what we do, we call a man later and try to work something out and this
is strictly automobile business.
Mr. JENNER. I appreciate that; yes.
Mr. PIZZO. Now, what else do you want to know now? What happened later?
Mr. JENNER. Have you now completed relating the incident on the
particular date you have in mind?
Mr. PIZZO. On that day; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection at the moment is that Bogard was
seeking to interest him in a Comet?
Mr. PIZZO. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. That's the Ford compact, is it not?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes; that's the Mercury compact. The Caliente--we had a red
Caliente, I believe, and I believe it was a red Caliente he went for a
ride in, not that he was selling that particular car, but we had just
gotten the new line of the hot compact, which was the Caliente, and we
bought them all in red and that's what he went for a ride in.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say "hot" or "hard"?
Mr. PIZZO. Hot--Caliente means hot, and that was the hot model of the
year--it had just come out.
Mr. JENNER. You have a little bit of New England accent or Rhode Island
or the Boston area?
Mr. PIZZO. You can't miss it--you can't hide it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you volunteered there a second that the man had taken
a ride in the Comet Caliente?
Mr. PIZZO. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. On what do you base that statement?
Mr. PIZZO. On what Al Bogard told me, that that was the car he had
taken him for a ride in.
Mr. JENNER. You had not seen this man in the car?
Mr. PIZZO. In the car or drive off either.
May I tell you the normal procedure that every salesman follows? He
talks to the customer, gets him interested in a car, takes him out for
a ride and puts him in a booth to see if he can sell him a car, and
that's the routine he followed.
Mr. JENNER. And this first stage of taking him for a ride, the salesman
drives the car rather than the customer?
Mr. PIZZO. That's the way it should be.
Mr. JENNER. And if the normal procedure were followed here, the
prospect would have been taken for a ride by Mr. Bogard?