Mr. BARNHORST. They don't show which one it is.
Mr. JENNER. Would they show the address that the guests gave?
Mr. BARNHORST. We always ask for an address, try to get an address
from them. Occasionally we don't. Occasionally they just sort of don't
put it on there and you say, "Well, I would like to have an address on
there." And they will say, "I plan to stay here." It should show an
address on there of some kind.
Mr. JENNER. And among the papers I have asked to have photostated will
that appear?
Mr. BARNHORST. If he gave an address, it will be there. Now, I came
across one fellow--I told a couple of the FBI men, because so many of
them were over there to talk to me--there's always around the YMCA
somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of
people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that
he knew Lee in New Orleans. Now, he is a little character and his IQ
matches his height. I'm not making personal opinions, you understand,
but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. He did come by and he, I
believe, stayed on the same floor, if I remember right.
Mr. JENNER. He was a guest?
Mr. BARNHORST. He was a permanent resident and he was one of these
fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened
to bounce in the same town all the time.
Mr. JENNER. What is his name?
Mr. BARNHORST. Joseph R. Hummel.
Mr. JENNER. [Spelling] H-u-m-m-e-l?
Mr. BARNHORST. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still a guest there?
Mr. BARNHORST. No; he moved out 2 or 3 months ago. We have a forwarding
address, I believe because his mail isn't here any more--that would
indicate a forwarding address. In fact, I believe I put the forwarding
address in the box. It's over there and I can probably get it for you.
Mr. JENNER. I wonder if you would do that and also give that to Mr.
Hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to
me.
Mr. BARNHORST. The night watchman over there told me one time--I
mentioned "Little" Joe, or heard "Little" Joe talking about it one
night and I wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman
says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and
"Little" Joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he
has been in New Orleans possibly about that time, so if I didn't know
that, I would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like
that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right
time. So, the FBI--I don't know whether they did anything about it or
not, but I just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person
around that I know of that remembers knowing Oswald or when he was
there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it.
Apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures I have
seen, he's like a hundred and one guys I have checked in over there,
and the only reason I would watch him if I suspected he might be a
homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we
watch for them and try to see if they are going to--to see the people
they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. I
don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it
has been talked about some.
Now, Mr. Barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have
over there who the roof could fall in on--just so it didn't fall in
over the part that was his desk--it wouldn't matter.
Mr. JENNER. It wouldn't matter to Barker?
Mr. BARNHORST. No.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still working there?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; he's about 79. He just lives and lets live. He
checks them in and checks them out. Somehow, maybe it's better that
way but I have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the
other, about it.
Mr. JENNER. What hours does Barker have?
Mr. BARNHORST. He works the same hours I do--four to midnight except
he works the three nights of the week that I don't and then works on
Saturday and Sunday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. He and I share the weekend
pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Barker checked in Oswald, according to your
records?
Mr. BARNHORST. According to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. On those records?
Mr. BARNHORST. Right. And Eva Marshall is the one who checked him out,
and I am personally pretty positive it was Mr. Barker because the
telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barker signed the receipt of payment of $3.25, for this
day on October 3 and 4?
Mr. BARNHORST. It was $3.25 then?
Mr. JENNER. It says $3.25.
Mr. BARNHORST. It should have been $3.25, you see.
Mr. JENNER. And Mr. Barker apparently charged him out on the 18th of
October 1962, and he paid $2.25 for the last day of that 4-day stay in
October 1962. Mr. Burge apparently checked him in because the receipt
is signed by Mr. Burge, on the 15th of October.
Mr. BARNHORST. If they still do the same thing as they did then that
would pinpoint the time when he came in. Mr. Burge relieves us in the
evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that
falls invariably between 5 and 7 because the cafeteria closes at 7:30.
Mr. JENNER. So, with Mr. Burge checking the man in, that would indicate
that was at night or in the evening?
Mr. BARNHORST. In the evening.
Mr. JENNER. It would be sometime after 4 in the afternoon?
Mr. BARNHORST. Sometime after 5, because he wouldn't come in until 5.
Mr. JENNER. And if Mr. Barker either checked somebody in or checked
somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it?
Mr. BARNHORST. It depends on the day of the week. If it was on the
weekend, it would be between 8 and 4. It would--if it was on a
weekevening, I mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. That's
presuming, of course, I'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as
he does now. Of course I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, October 15, 1962, was a Monday?
Mr. BARNHORST. A Monday--well, then, that meant that he was very
possibly working the shift I am working now, because he's off Monday
and Tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. I am presuming
that he wasn't working full time for us then.
Mr. JENNER. But if he did work, it was at night?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I'm pretty sure it would be. I don't think he was
ever a day clerk.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I appreciate very much your coming in. You have
been helpful and if you will relate to Mr. Hulen my desire for these
additional records, photostatic copies, I would appreciate it. He said
he was going to return about 2 o'clock this afternoon.
Mr. BARNHORST. All right.
Mr. JENNER. If he has those, you might speak with him--you see he is in
the health department.
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know just how familiar he is with these records,
but he may be able to explain them.
Mr. BARNHORST. He might and he might not be. He probably might not be
familiar with the midnight reports. We make these daily reports where
his name would be at the desk.
Mr. JENNER. Where the guest's name would appear at the desk?
Mr. BARNHORST. I beg your pardon?
Mr. JENNER. The name of the guest.
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be, on a permanent form. We have a sheaf
of papers--we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back,
that goes back to Noah and if we had Noah, it would be on that. It had
everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, I know of
course it covers Oswald because I saw it on there.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw it?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As a matter of fact as late as last night?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; and I remember it was "Lee H." Now, it doesn't
necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "Lee H."
It could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the
names for space.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that room 601, was the room he occupied on the 3d of
October 1963, or was it the room he occupied in 1962?
Mr. BARNHORST. In 1963. I didn't see the one in 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in
1962--appears on these records you have described?
Mr. BARNHORST. Well; I would say it would be there unless it had been
mutilated, and it's double checked by this Mr. McRee's secretary. He is
the resident manager. It is double checked by her to see that all the
stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are
matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them
stuck together.
Mr. JENNER. I hesitate to press you but in view of your great
familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly
inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with
those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at 2
o'clock, with Mr. Hulen.
Mr. BARNHORST. The photostats or the originals?
Mr. JENNER. The photostats.
Mr. BARNHORST. At 2 o'clock?
Mr. JENNER. Please, and you would be in a position to say that the
photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and
cards that you personally saw in the YMCA.
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And if you will return, then I will not close your
deposition now, but I will wait until 2 o'clock. Thank you very much. I
appreciate your coming in.
Mr. BARNHORST. Well, I realize this is just details that you have to
have.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; that's right.
Mr. BARNHORST. I'll be back at 2 o'clock.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you.
(At this point the witness Barnhorst was excused from the deposing room
and returned to same at 2 p.m. on this same day, April 1, 1964, and his
deposition was continued as follows:)
Mr. JENNER. Now, the balance of Mr. Barnhorst's deposition. You thought
you might be able to obtain some records for me, Mr. Barnhorst.
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir; I was not able to obtain the blue card record.
The FBI has that. That's the notice from Mr. McRee in his handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. "The FBI"--I am reading the note, "The FBI has the register
cards for October 3, 1963. 1962 has been destroyed and we didn't keep
them that long."
Mr. BARNHORST. This is a sample register card just for your own
information.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient
register card," which he described this morning. The card is entitled,
"Transient register card." It has a stub entitled "Transient," and is
light blue in color. We will mark it Hulen Exhibit No. 8.
Mr. BARNHORST. And that Toro, Calif.--I can identify that as a Marine
base, I believe, you've probably heard the name of it.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. BARNHORST. That would have appeared as an address on the blue card
in October 1963, because that's the only place where Mr. Barker could
have gotten the information.
Mr. JENNER. The receipt as to that occasion which I have described in
the record, dated October 3, 1963, Lee H. Oswald, opposite the word
"address," does have "Toro, Calif." So, in the normal course, I take it
that that address would have been furnished to the registration clerk,
and in this case, Mr. Barker?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; it would be on the blue card.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; the blue card, the sample of which you have furnished
me?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; also, Mr. McRee, the resident manager, says that
Mr. Oswald produced an identification card, which is not hard to
believe because he could have simply claimed to have lost it, his ID,
when he was in the service, and had them make him another one and
turn in the one he had made. I've seen fellows do that quite often.
It is usually used for getting into PX's and USO's. This is from our
ledger sheets, these I have here that are dated in the red left-hand
column--everywhere there is a red checkmark on there, Mr. Oswald's name
appears with a receipt number, the amount paid, his last name, also
that he never paid any membership fees, but only the room fees.
Mr. JENNER. All right, you have handed me three cards from the original
records of the downtown YMCA--they are three sheets.
Mr. BARNHORST. Written on both sides.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; written on both sides. I will mark them commencing
with the earliest date on the exhibits, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9, 10,
and 11. Would you identify the sheets? What are they, what kind of
record?
Mr. BARNHORST. They are original ledger sheets for a transient guest
and they are for the purpose of recording temporarily that the
registrar has paid certain fees, because oftentimes they lose their
receipts. They come down and we copy into this register--which is
placed in a file, the amount that they paid. It is to guarantee that
there is no confusion on the amount that is paid.
Mr. JENNER. And do these three register cards that I have in my hand
cover all the month of October 1963?
Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; they don't.
Mr. JENNER. I'm sorry, do they cover the month of October 1962?
Mr. BARNHORST. I don't know whether they do--I doubt it--I think they
would only cover the days before and after the time which you are
interested in. They cover from October--October 15th through October
19th.
Mr. JENNER. May I call your attention to the last of the cards, which
is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 11, the first entry on which is dated
October 2, 1963, and that is for 1963, I'm sure?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; the 1962 cards, marked Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9 and
10, respectively, run from October 15th through October 19th.
Mr. JENNER. And they consist of two sheets?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In selecting these two sheets covering the 15th through the
19th, did you examine the ledger sheets for the balance of the month?
Mr. BARNHORST. No, sir; Mr. McRee did.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. McRee did so?
Mr. BARNHORST. And he told me those are the only cards that have Mr.
Oswald's name on them.
Mr. JENNER. So, they were selected from the ledger cards for October
1963, those which had some entry thereon with respect to Oswald?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. It was done by the receipt numbers, also.
Mr. JENNER. It was doublechecked, so that there appears a--on the third
line of the 1962, card commencing with October 15th, an entry under
date of October 15th, reciting item No. 18198 and the name, "Oswald,"
and $2.25 and under the column, "balance," there is a strike line,
and--indicating nothing due.
Mr. BARNHORST. Pardon me, that balance is not used for the purpose of
something due. We substitute for that a membership fee. That strike
line means he did not have a membership fee.
Mr. JENNER. There is a similar entry for the 16th, the 17th, and
the 18th. These records then are for the recording of the fact that
Oswald was a guest on those days, and that he paid the amounts of
money recorded on the ledger sheets, which in turn correspond with the
receipts which Mr. Hulen brought in?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The third of these ledger sheets--the first entry is
opposite a date in 1963--October 2, 1963. I take it this ledger sheet
was selected from among all of the ledger sheets for the month of
October 1963, because it records the name Oswald on October 3, 1963,
item No. 15593, $2.25--is that correct?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes. I have seen all of the ledger sheets for October
1963.
Mr. JENNER. And this is the only one that has any entry on it with
respect to Oswald?
Mr. BARNHORST. That's the only one.
Mr. JENNER. And that one entry that does have, corresponds with the
receipt on that date, produced by Mr. Hulen?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. May we have these photostated and then returned to you or
did you make photostats?
Mr. BARNHORST. We do not keep this for any great length of time. Mr.
McRee said we might turn this over to you.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.
Mr. BARNHORST. As with all of the records.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will retain them. Do you have other papers?
Mr. BARNHORST. Yes; these are the daily report sheets you requested.
This is October 1963. These are for the specific dates at the top.