The testimony of Richard Leroy Hulen was taken at 10:50 a.m., on April
1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Will you please stand up and be sworn?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give
you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr. HULEN. I do.
Mr. JENNER. State your name, please.
Mr. HULEN. Richard Leroy Hulen.
Mr. JENNER. And you are connected with the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. In what capacity?
Mr. HULEN. I am the associate director of the health club.
Mr. JENNER. And you are appearing in lieu of whom?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. John F. Campbell.
Mr. JENNER. And he is the head of the health club, I take it?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And at present he is out of the city?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. The YMCA that we are talking about is located where?
Mr. HULEN. At 605 South Ervay in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. We are in the Federal Court House. How far away is that
from here?
Mr. HULEN. Two blocks.
Mr. JENNER. I should say to you, Mr. Hulen, that I am Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission, that
the Commission was authorized pursuant to Senate Joint Resolution
137, as the group to investigate the tragedy of November 22, 1963, of
the assassination of the late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and
President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, shortly after the adoption
of the Senate joint resolution, appointed the Commission and authorized
it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses.
We have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are
particularly interested in a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. It is our
understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the YMCA that
you have identified. Would you describe your duties and those of Mr.
Campbell and describe the health club, and I should also add we are
interested in a man by the name of Jack Ruby or Jack Rubenstein, and I
may ask you some questions about him as well.
Mr. HULEN. Well, of course, Mr. Campbell is in charge of the
department. He does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders
supplies and supervises the operation in general and I take my orders
from him.
Mr. JENNER. You are his assistant?
Mr. HULEN. I am the assistant.
Mr. JENNER. How long have you been associated with the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Well, since 1945.
Mr. JENNER. And during--you were doing this work at the downtown YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the health club is what sort of activity?
Mr. HULEN. The health club is a businessmen's club. We have seven
masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have
ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of
gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells
and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and I could go on
and on.
Mr. JENNER. I think that's enough. You have businessmen who come in, do
they join the club or pay a fee?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; we have a yearly membership fee.
Mr. JENNER. If some guest who is a guest of the YMCA, wants to have a
rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to
use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee?
Mr. HULEN. Not without paying a fee. He is a member if he lives in the
dormitory--he is a member of the YMCA, but not of the health club.
So, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might
be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices?
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Mr. Davis off the record,
pertaining to facilities and services at the YMCA.)
Mr. JENNER. All right. Back on the record. Referring to these yearly
members, do you become acquainted with them?
Mr. HULEN. Most of them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you become acquainted during your history with the YMCA
with a man in town here known as Jack Ruby or Jack Rubinstein?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Was he a member of your club?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; he was.
Mr. JENNER. And you have produced here for me a photostatic copy
of what is entitled and identified for the record, "Membership
application," and it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of
a membership application for one Jack Ruby. From where did you obtain
that exhibit?
Mr. HULEN. From the membership office.
Mr. JENNER. And this card, of which the document I have in my hands is
a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular
course of business?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photo
copy of the original of the membership application and card which is
maintained and is presently in the possession of the YMCA?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; I do.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I would like to have you explain some of the things
here for me--on the form, which has been marked Hulen Exhibit No. 1,
under the printed designation, "Firm name," appears as typed, "Club
Vegas," sir. Would you explain what that is?
Mr. HULEN. I think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his
business address.
Mr. JENNER. That is the business address of Jack Ruby or Jack
Rubinstein. Club Vegas is some kind of a club here in Dallas?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right, or at least it was at the time this application
was made out?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. And is still operating, incidentally.
Mr. JENNER. And it says opposite, "Type of membership,"--there appear
two initials, "SH" what do they signify?
Mr. HULEN. Special health.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?
Mr. HULEN. That means all of the facilities will be available to that
member except the massages.
Mr. JENNER. On the reverse side of the card there appears the heading,
"Membership account," and then there are columns in which there are
long hand entries. These columns are headed, "Date due, amount,
payments, card," and some entries. For example, for purposes of
explanation, the first entry on the reverse side on this form I have
described under "date due," appears 9-10-58. I take it that is a date
meaning September 10, 1958?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the next column which is headed "Amount," there appears
$65. Then under "Payments," that column is split in two--the left hand
one reads and is headed by the word "Date," and the entry there is 9-2.
I assume that is September 2, but no year, and then under the column
headed, "Amount," appears $30. Would you explain that type entry?
Mr. HULEN. Well, at the time, in 1958, our membership fee for the
special health club membership was $67, and there is a $2 cash saving
if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get
our amount $65, and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is,
the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in 30 days, but
apparently this wasn't paid in 30 days, but he still received benefit
of cash payment.
Mr. JENNER. Does that form indicate that the health fee was paid?
Mr. HULEN. Oh, yes; yes, indeed.
Mr. JENNER. It was paid--on what date?
Mr. HULEN. It was 11-12-62, the last payment. The first payment was
made on 9-10-58, wait a minute, I am wrong. It was then when he joined,
the first payment was 9-20. In other words, that 9-10 was their billing
date and he joined on 9-2 and they billed him on 9-10, and his second
payment which was supposed to have been paid in 30 days was paid on
11-12-58. I'm sorry, but I'm not too familiar with this. I'm just
groping here myself. This is handled in another office. You will notice
that the date due here was 9-10-59, again, you see, and this will
denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he
wasn't active, as you will notice there.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I noticed it. Now, it would appear that the first two
columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the second set of columns under the heading "Payments,"
indicates payments that were made?
Mr. HULEN. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the 10th of
September 1958, in the amount of $65, and then in the next two columns
that he paid on September 2, $30, and he paid on November 12, $35 or
a total then by that time of $65, that had been billed or was to have
been paid by September 10?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. He actually completed his payment on November 12?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then, the next entry appears to be one of $65 for the
following year, that is for 1959, due on November 1, 1959, and then
there is an entry under the "Payments," column of the receipt of $65,
on the 22d of October, that is, there was a prepayment there in 1959.
Then, for 1962, the "Due Date," was April 20, 1962--$74. Apparently
your fee went up?
Mr. HULEN. Yes; it did.
Mr. JENNER. And there are entries of two payments, one a $25 on the
18th of April 1962, and the second of $49, on the 3d of August 1962, so
he was then paid up?
Mr. HULEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And for 1963, there is an entry of a payment due on the 1st
of June 1963, of $30 and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment
on the 23d of May 1963, of $60.
What does that indicate, that is, here for 1962, he was a $74 member
and in 1963, he appears to be only a $30 member?
Mr. HULEN. Oh, I've got it now. If a person for some reason cannot take
out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we
would let him have a 3-month membership which would explain the $30. At
that date he was on the 3-month membership.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. HULEN. A short-term membership, we call it.
Mr. JENNER. At the bottom of this form there is written, "Do not
renew," 11-28-63, meaning November 28, 1963. What does that mean?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told
the stenographer in the membership office that if Ruby ever came back
for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and
she wrote that on there just for her own information. Actually, it was
a joke.
Mr. JENNER. If he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal
would have been granted him?
Mr. HULEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. It would not have been?
Mr. HULEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Why is that?
Mr. HULEN. I don't know, Mr. Urquhart made the statement that it is, it
was----
Mr. JENNER. Well, I'll try to bring that out, is the entry "Do not
renew," of November 28, 1963, is that something in jest?
Mr. HULEN. Yes, sir. In my opinion, I think he was just being facetious.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious?
Mr. HULEN. Mr. Urquhart was being facetious.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, Mr. Ruby did not renew his membership?
Mr. HULEN. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In 1963?
Mr. HULEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. "J.C.", I assume is John Campbell?
Mr. HULEN. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. And there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite
an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the initial entry fee, there
appears in writing, "Wants to pay up in month's time. Okay, J.C." That
indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when Ruby
joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay
up.
Mr. HULEN. I think that means that if he made the complete payment
of the yearly membership in 2 payments within 30 days, that he would
receive benefit of the discount.
Mr. JENNER. I see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within 30 days, his
payment, first payment was made on the 2d of September of $30, and his
second payment of $35, was made on November 12, 1958, so you gave him
the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the 30 days?