The testimony of Mrs. Mahlon F. Tobias was taken at 3 p.m., on April
2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, would you rise and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. TOBIAS. I do.
Mr. JENNER. You are Mrs. M. F. Tobias?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Of 602 Elsbeth?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Dallas, Tex.
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What does that "M" stand for?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Mahlon [spelling] M-a-h-l-o-n, and the "F" is Forrest
[spelling] F-o-r-r-e-s-t.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the
legal staff of the President's Commission. My file indicates that you
and Mr. Tobias received a letter from Mr. Rankin, the general counsel
of this Commission?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we did.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the Senate joint
resolution authorizing the creation of the Commission and of President
Lyndon Johnson's Executive order creating the Commission, and also a
copy of the rules and regulations of the Commission?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you have noted from those documents that the
Commission is appointed to investigate and look into circumstances
surrounding the assassination of our late President, John Fitzgerald
Kennedy?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And this leads us from time to time to seek information
and help from people who had some contact here and there with persons
who went across the scene, so to speak, the stage--one of whom was Lee
Harvey Oswald, and we understand that in the ordinary course of your
own life you had some contact with him--you and Mr. Tobias.
Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right. We are managers of the
apartment house--that's right.
Mr. JENNER. And we would like to ask you a few questions about that, if
I may?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay; I will be glad to help you all I can.
Mr. JENNER. That is wonderful and I appreciate that very much. Would
you give me just a little bit of your history?
Mrs. TOBIAS. My history--what do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native American, and where were you born and so
forth?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; I was born in Arkansas. I have lived in Dallas, Tex.,
12 years, but I have been all over the United States. I raised my
family in Michigan. I married in Michigan.
Mr. JENNER. What town in Michigan?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Battle Creek--my husband is from Michigan and I went
there as a bride and I raised my family in Michigan, and we have been
back here 12 years. We have been in Dallas--back in Dallas about 12
years--well, we have been back about 14 years, but in Dallas, Tex., you
mean, for 12 years.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband is retired now?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; my husband was in construction and during the war
he worked for the government. We were just all over, but, of course,
he broke his back--it will be 14 years ago in August, and he worked
up until 5 years ago, so he had to give up 5 years ago, and he is on
social security, of course, and that's why we manage these apartments.
Mr. JENNER. And you have been primarily a mother raising a brood of
five boys and a housewife and also help your husband manage some
apartments?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And in connection with the management of the apartments, is
that how you had your contact with Mr. Oswald?
Mrs. TOBIAS. With Mr. Oswald--that's right--he had one of the
apartments.
Mr. JENNER. Located where?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Now, he was in 604--602 and 604--just like--this is 604
over here and 602 is down here and there is one down and one up. Mr.
Oswald lived in 604 and we live over here in 602 and it faces Elsbeth.
Do you want a description of it?
Mr. JENNER. Let me get a piece of paper and let's draw a picture of it
so I can orient myself.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Are you familiar with those apartments?
Mr. JENNER. No; I'm not, I don't know a thing about them.
Mrs. TOBIAS. We'll say now that this is Elsbeth--this side runs down
like this and then across.
Mr. JENNER. Which is north and which is south?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Let's see--this is west.
Mr. JENNER. Put a "W" there.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Let me see now, I want to make sure--there is West Davis,
but we are just on the corner of West Davis and Elsbeth, you see, that
would be west, wouldn't it, still--I don't know my directions.
Mr. JENNER. All right, we will do it this way--is this Elsbeth
[referring to map drawn by the witness]?
Mrs. TOBIAS. This is Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. All right, write Elsbeth in there.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All right. [Spelling] E-l-s-b-e-t-h, and this is--Elsbeth
and that side over here is Davis.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where is Davis Street?
Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be Davis right there.
Mr. JENNER. Why don't you draw a line there for Davis?
Mrs. TOBIAS. There's one apartment down and one up over that one--this
would be Davis over here.
Mr. JENNER. All right, write "Davis" there.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All right--right here is Davis. Now, Davis faces west, so
what would this direction be--this is direct west and east--Davis is.
Mr. JENNER. Davis runs east and west?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--east and west--and let me see--Elsbeth would be north
and south, wouldn't it?
Mr. JENNER. That's right.
All right, let's put the directions on here--put an "N" up here and an
"S" down at the bottom.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All right; I will put an "N" and an "S" down here.
Mr. JENNER. And then put an "E" for east and a "W" to your right for
west, and the "E" is to your left.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. Now, how many apartments do you have in this building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten.
Mr. JENNER. There are 10 apartments?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And what are they--two-room, three-room, four-room?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Three.
Mr. JENNER. They are a three-room apartment and they are all three-room
apartments?
Mrs. TOBIAS. All three room.
Mr. JENNER. And you and Mr. Tobias occupy one?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes; we do--we have apartment 7 over here on Davis. You
see, we live on Davis and this is Davis, like I drew it out here, you
see, and we live on Davis. He lived over here--he lived over here at
602, and do you want me to put 602 there?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; put 602 there--is it 602 Davis?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; it's Elsbeth, but--shall I mark that out--this side is
602 over here, and this is 604 over here.
Mr. JENNER. All right, put the 604 right under the apartment No. 2.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Do you want me to strike over that?
Mr. JENNER. No; no, you are fine--604 is an entrance into apartment
604, is that right?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And they occupied apartment 604?
Mrs. TOBIAS. They had No. 2 right on the front.
Mr. JENNER. They had two apartments?
Mrs. TOBIAS. No; No. 2.
Mr. JENNER. All right, No. 2, right on the front.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Right on the front.
Mr. JENNER. That's Elsbeth Street, and is that the first floor or the
second floor?
Mrs. TOBIAS. First--apartment 2 is downstairs and ours is the same
across the front on the ground.
Mr. JENNER. Is yours on the first floor also?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. How many floors in this building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Two floors--this one has one down and one up--you see, one
comes down like this and one is up like this.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean "one down and one up"?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Well, you see, up over these now, this is a 2-story
building.
Mr. JENNER. There are apartments above each of the apartments Nos. 602
and 604?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. That is not true at the opposite end, the west end?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Here, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. TOBIAS. This one right here is No. 6 and over it is No. 10. Do you
know what I am talking about?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I will figure it out in a minute. I take it the
entrances to the apartment building are on Elsbeth Street?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there are some apartments in the rear that go all the
way through, do they?
Mrs. TOBIAS. We have a back entrance and a front entrance. Now, my back
entrance goes out on Davis and my front entrance comes out into this
patio, and also would Mr. Oswald's come out into the patio.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I am interested in that.
Mrs. TOBIAS. He has two entrances, remember now, that he could use.
Mr. JENNER. I'll tell you what we will do--I'm going to mark this
"Tobias."
May the record show that Mrs. Tobias has been drawing a plat of
the apartment building on Elsbeth Street which I have now marked
"Tobias--No. 1."
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--okay.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she has drawn a rectangle, and the north side is Davis
Street, the east side of the rectangle is Elsbeth Street. Now, Mrs.
Tobias, you correct me if I am wrong.
Mrs. TOBIAS. This would be south, wouldn't it--yes--that would be
south--he lived on this south side.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Tobias is pointing to the area of the plat which is
marked "S" or the side opposite to that which is marked "N."
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The figure 604 underneath the word "Elsbeth" appearing on
the east line of the rectangle is the apartment occupied by the Oswalds.
Mrs. TOBIAS. 604--apartment 2.
Mr. JENNER. Apartment 2.
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was on the ground floor?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that's on the southeast corner of the building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you live in a similar three-room apartment on the
northeast corner of the building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes--602--that's right.
Mr. JENNER. So, we will draw a little square in there, representing
those apartments.
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there are altogether how many apartments in the
building?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Ten.
Mr. JENNER. I'm going to write 10 apartments on there.
Mrs. TOBIAS. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Now, those apartments run back from interiors, or one after
another, back from Elsbeth Street.
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. They have front entrances and rear entrances?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance to your apartment is from Davis Street?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Davis Street; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. The rear entrance from the Oswald apartment is from where?
Mrs. TOBIAS. From the driveway, and that would be south, wouldn't it?
Mr. JENNER. There is a driveway that runs along this way [indicating]?
Mrs. TOBIAS. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. It's a private driveway?
Mrs. TOBIAS. Yes, it is; it's private, it goes to the apartments.