Mr. LIEBELER. No; the motive behind it is to reduce the weight of the
rifle?
Mr. ALBA. The weight; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you whether the weapons that he
had or weapon was a military piece, or whether it had been sporterized,
or anything about it?
Mr. ALBA. If my memory serves me, he told me he had a few rifles and a
few pistols, and never pursued the issue any further to name what they
were or what they weren't. I don't know whether it is an assumption on
my part or not, and if I am not mistaken he said they were military
arms.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate whether he sporterized them or not?
Mr. ALBA. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display familiarity with the whole proposition of
sporterizing a rifle?
Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he display, or did you draw any conclusions as to
whether he was familiar with this process or not?
Mr. ALBA. No. And yes; I would say that I had drawn an opinion that he
was not familiar with the sporterizing of arms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other conversations that you and
Oswald had about rifles or weapons?
Mr. ALBA. None other than he asking permission to borrow some magazines
from time to time. And as far as I knew, they were all returned.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of magazines were these?
Mr. ALBA. Outdoor Life and Field and Stream, Argosy, and hunting and
fishing magazines, and National Rifle Association magazines. And guns
and ammo magazines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever have discussions with you about the relative
merits of a small calibre as opposed to large calibre bullets?
Mr. ALBA. None.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are very clear about that in your mind?
Mr. ALBA. We discussed the wounding effect of combat guns of the small
calibre versus the large calibres, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was that discussion?
Mr. ALBA. Well, the small calibre in the field would tend to disable
a man and require two men to cart him off, versus the larger calibre
which would knock out a man permanently.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am looking at an FBI report which indicates that on
November 25, 1963, you were interviewed by two agents of the FBI, Mr.
Lester G. Davis, and John William Miller----
Mr. ALBA. I remember that.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the report indicates that you recalled an additional
conversation that you had with Oswald in which you and Oswald discussed
the merits of small calibres and larger calibre bullets, and the report
said that you recall that Oswald mentioned that a small calibre bullet
was more deadly than the larger one, to which point you agreed.
Mr. ALBA. Having been left with a wounding effect you would survive a
larger calibre wound, your chances of survival from a larger or large
calibre wound would be greater than the smaller calibre. We went into
the discussion of basing the thing in the ice pick versus the bread
knife--I don't think I mentioned this part to the FBI--reflecting on
the whole picture that you would be better off receiving a wound from
a 10-inch bread knife than you would be being gigged once with a 2- or
3-inch ice pick, and that reflecting the difference between the large
calibre wound and the small calibre wound.
Mr. LIEBELER. What led you and Oswald to agree that you would be better
off being hit with a bread knife than with the ice pick?
Mr. ALBA. Internal bleeding.
Mr. LIEBELER. There would be more internal bleeding from the ice pick?
Mr. ALBA. Small calibre or the ice pick; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you both agreed that the small calibre bullet
would be more deadly than the larger one?
Mr. ALBA. Being left with a wounded effect; in other words, if it was
my intention to destroy an animal I would prefer the large calibre,
but if an animal was wounded with a large calibre, or a small calibre
bullet, I would say that the smaller calibre bullet would be more
deadly in the end than the large calibre wound, and he might survive
the large calibre with an open wound.
Mr. LIEBELER. During the course of this conversation, did Oswald
indicate in anyway whether the rifles that he had were large calibre or
small calibre weapons?
Mr. ALBA. None other than the weapons were of the military, and I don't
know--that part is an assumption on my part or whether he actually said
it. He went to no length at all in discussing his firearms. In fact,
it was my experience with Lee Oswald that you had to ask Lee Oswald
questions. Either Lee Oswald was talking to you, or he wasn't talking
at all. And I may have asked him what he had in the way of firearms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he mention that he had a pistol, or pistols?
Mr. ALBA. If I remember correctly, I think he said he had a few, or a
couple, or two. I am not definite.
Mr. LIEBELER. A couple of pistols?
Mr. ALBA. Pistols--he said he had a few rifles, and a few pistols--or
it was a couple, or it was two. I am not clear.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were discussing this question of whether or not
Oswald had any pistols with the FBI, and do you remember discussing it?
Mr. ALBA. If I made any mention of it, I am sure it would be as I
have just represented it to be. I have no recollection of my definite
discussions with the FBI at the time. I do remember, however, meeting
the gentlemen and discussing Lee Oswald with them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald seemed more interested or
was disposed more in favor of rifles than pistols? Or did he seem----
Mr. ALBA. Very definitely toward the rifle side.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was more interested in rifles?
Mr. ALBA. Very little interested in the pistols. I had as many as
three or--I think at one time four pistols down there, and Lee Oswald
was very, very keen toward the rifles that were among my sporterizing
projects, and so on; other than the pistols, he had very, very little
interest in the pistols.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you do the sporterizing work on these weapons right
there in your garage?
Mr. ALBA. That is correct. And what I didn't do, I jobbed out, that is,
I gave out to gunsmiths.
Mr. LIEBELER. To what?
Mr. ALBA. To a gunsmith.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever tell you that he had fired these rifles
or this rifle that he owned?
Mr. ALBA. None other than to ask me if I knew of a place where you
could discharge firearms, that is, close by, without getting in the car
and riding for hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say when he asked you about that?
Mr. ALBA. My reply was that I joined the National Rifle Association,
and I have been able to shoot on the rifle range. It had been some
years since I had done any shooting along the River Road or the levy,
or anything else like that, and that I am sure that if you attempted
that today, they either would run you off or arrest you for discharging
firearms.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you mention specifically a rifle range where you had
discharged your firearms?
Mr. ALBA. I believe I did, and I am sure that if I did I told him that
he would have to be a member in order to be able to use the range.
Mr. LIEBELER. What range was it?
Mr. ALBA. Crescent Gun, Claiborne Avenue, owns the range, and if you
are a National Rifle Association member, then you have the privileges
of belonging to the rifle range across the river, which belongs to
Crescent Gun.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald ever indicate an intention to join the
National Rifle Association?
Mr. ALBA. None.
Mr. LIEBELER. In connection with this carbine that you had ordered from
the National Rifle Association, you indicated that he had expressed an
interest in buying that weapon from you? Is that correct?
Mr. ALBA. He had an interest very much, and after I told him that I
wouldn't sell the gun, and I had mentioned that I was getting the gun
for approximately $35 through the N.R.A., and that this same gun on the
market would sell from $75 to $100, and he had made the expression that
if and when "you get the carbine, should you decide to sell it, I would
make it worthwhile for you to sell the gun."
Mr. LIEBELER. But he never spoke of joining the N.R.A. in order to
obtain a carbine such as this himself?
Mr. ALBA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ask you how much it cost to join the National
Rifle Association?
Mr. ALBA. No; he didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell him?
Mr. ALBA. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How much does it cost?
Mr. ALBA. $5.
Mr. LIEBELER. $5?
Mr. ALBA. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go through these various gun magazines and
sporting magazines that Oswald had looked at? You went through them
after the assassination, is that correct?
Mr. ALBA. Had I gone through these magazines that Lee Oswald had
borrowed from me?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. ALBA. And had I gone through them since the assassination?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. ALBA. Since the assassination the FBI and the secret service took
the magazines off, and I have not received them since.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had read these magazines or gone through them
prior to the time that Oswald looked at them?
Mr. ALBA. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you left them in your office and Oswald borrowed
some and brought them back?
Mr. ALBA. Well, we have a coffee urn and a coke machine and some chairs
in there, and a coffee table, and on the coffee table I would say that
I had approximately anywhere from 80 to 120 magazines.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you didn't go through them after the assassination
and prior to the time that the FBI and the Secret Service removed them
from your office?