Mr. GLOVER. The only thing I have a hazy recollection about, that it
was on a Tuesday or Wednesday of the week.
Mr. JENNER. Washington's Birthday in 1963, was on a Friday.
Mr. GLOVER. Maybe it was. My recollection isn't worth much on this.
Mr. JENNER. It was the latter part of February, in any event, of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. The meeting at which I first met Oswald was just previous
to the meeting where I met Oswald and his wife the second time.
Mr. JENNER. There were two occasions when you met Oswald and his wife?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The first one was at the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, we have one meeting described which you
set in the early part of the year, Marina alone. That is, she was
unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There might have been some additional occasions when you
saw her at the De Mohrenschildts prior to your having met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Now what was the circumstance under which you had your
first meeting or first occasion that you met Lee Oswald?
Mr. GLOVER. On that occasion the De Mohrenschildts invited the two
Oswalds and invited quite a number of other people--I was included--to
their house.
Mr. JENNER. About when was this?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, this was just previous to the time that Oswald and
his wife came to my house, so I would say it was just a few days or a
week before that.
Mr. JENNER. At the De Mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. This is where I have difficulty in recollection. Several
times the De Mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner,
when he had informal dinners, and I am not really sure at all who was
present. I am sure that De Mohrenschildt and his wife, Marina Oswald
and Lee Oswald, and myself, and Volkmar Schmidt.
Mr. JENNER. He was then living with you?
Mr. GLOVER. Living with me. He was there. And of the other people, I
have just a poor impression as to whether----
Mr. JENNER. What about Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. Pierce was not there, I know that.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there anybody by the name of Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. You are talking about the first meeting? I know
Fredricksen. He had his office next to me at the laboratory. He works
also at the laboratory, so I know him quite well. He was not there.
Mr. JENNER. You have exhausted your recollection now? There were
additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their
names?
Mr. GLOVER. I can recall names of people who might have been there, and
I certainly wouldn't swear to it, because I really don't remember that
well.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a large party?
Mr. GLOVER. There were quite a number of people for the small
apartment. There may have been five or six, seven or eight more people.
Mr. JENNER. There may have been five or six or seven or eight more
people in addition to these you have named?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Now I have an impression, and I may be completely
wrong, that a man by the name of Richmond was there.
Mr. JENNER. Richmond?
Mr. GLOVER. I am not sure how you'd spell his name. I know they called
him High Richmond, and he works at the, they call it SCAS, which is
Southwest Center for Advanced Studies. He has taught physics at SMU. He
may have been there. I do not know for sure. Sam Ballen might have been
there, I don't know. I am not clear at all who might have been there.
Mr. JENNER. All right, this was a dinner party or an evening party?
Mr. GLOVER. Sort of a dinner.
Mr. JENNER. What did the Oswalds look like and what was your impression
of Lee Oswald? Tell me how the Oswalds were generally attired? Did
anything impress you?
Mr. GLOVER. Not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of
things. I got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly
well attired. As I remember, Oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair
of pants. He wasn't dressed up at all. Some of the other people were
dressed up.
Mr. JENNER. Even though this was in February 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't know. I got the impression that he was
informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was
also. That is the impression I got. Maybe she was dressed up more.
Again, only impression I have is the informality of it as opposed to
some of the other people who would be wearing suits. I can't remember
what I was wearing at that time myself. I have the impression that they
were different people than a lot of other people.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be true of each of them?
Mr. GLOVER. About her, I don't know. It is hard to say. I don't
remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little
girl with a baby over on the bed sofa.
Mr. JENNER. She brought the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure; yes. Now again, I believe so, but again,
I am not a hundred percent sure.
Mr. JENNER. On this previous occasion had she brought her child with
her?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe she always had her child with her.
Mr. JENNER. To the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had
the child with her?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What occurred that evening in the way of discussion?
Mr. GLOVER. This evening several people talked to Oswald. I talked very
little.
Mr. JENNER. English or Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. No, I don't remember whether there was any conversation in
Russian or not. I really didn't talk hardly any to the Oswalds, any
myself that evening. I know I remember that Volkmar Schmidt talked
with him considerably, but he did not talk in Russian. Volkmar talked
English.
Mr. JENNER. Does Volkmar Schmidt have command of the Russian language?
Mr. GLOVER. He has no command of Russian, although Norman Fredricksen
and Pierce and Volkmar all had started to study Russian. There was a
course at the school. I believe there was a course at the laboratory,
a private teacher was giving classes. They all three started to take,
but Volkmar and Pierce stopped, and Fredricksen was the only one who
continued.
Mr. JENNER. Is the name Voshinin familiar to you?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he the instructor or the tutor for Fredricksen and
Pierce?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so. I don't think that is the--I am quite
sure that is not the same person at all. The facts I have about the
teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in Dallas
who taught classes on the side. Maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe
he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was
teaching on the side.
Mr. JENNER. Voshinin worked for Sun, did he not?
Mr. GLOVER. Not the Voshinin that I know. I know one Voshinin, and he
is teaching in the Chemical Engineering School of SMU. And his wife
does translating. Now I don't know of any other Voshinin. I don't
recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but Fredricksen
ended up by taking Russian lessons from an older woman who, I think,
was related to a woman who--I beg your pardon, Fredricksen took lessons
later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil
company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name I do
not remember.
Mr. JENNER. His mother-in-law? Voshinin's mother-in-law, Mrs. Gravitis?
Mr. GLOVER. She had some kind of a name she was known by. I am quite
sure--I can't remember whether it was Voshinin--it is not the Voshinin
that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. It is a different one?
Mr. GLOVER. The only Voshinin I know is the man that teaches at SMU.
Mr. JENNER. Does anything stand out in your mind on this initial
meeting which you met Lee Oswald? And if so, would you please state it.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the story from the beginning that the De
Mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, I didn't
talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me.
In the first place, when he [De Mohrenschildt] told the story, I didn't
believe it was possible for any one to go to Russia and work as he did
and come back to this country. I doubted it was quite possible. And I
mentioned this fact to some of the people I worked with. One fellow
was particularly anti-Russian in every way, and he thought this easily
possible for a person to do this, that this made sense.
In other words, that I was dubious of the story from the beginning. The
thing that I kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where
I made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what
he said and brought a Russian wife here, that certainly would be known
by the authorities, the FBI particularly, and that if a person like he
were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he
would be someone who is known very well by the FBI people. I told the
FBI about this, and I also told them what De Mohrenschildt had written
to me quite recently.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. GLOVER. De Mohrenschildt told me in a letter that Oswald had been
checked by the FBI----
Mr. JENNER. Do you have it?
Mr. GLOVER. I gave it to the FBI. They have the letter. He stated
in the letter that he had asked the FBI about this man, and I don't
remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter,
but words to the effect that they passed on him, or he was harmless,
or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from
their point of view.
Mr. JENNER. That is, De Mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made
an inquiry of the FBI and the FBI reassured him?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That is, Oswald was all right?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to put words in your mouth. I want you to, by
your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not
in my words.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I did get the impression from what I recall of
his letter, that he had checked with the FBI, and I remember he stated
specifically in the letter, either in Fort Worth or Dallas, about
Oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was
acceptable. They passed on him in some way. I don't remember the exact
way he put it. It is in the letter.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had any discussion with De Mohrenschildt on that
subject on or about the time of your meeting the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. When I got this letter, it reminded me that at one time
when they were first talking about putting Marina somewhere, getting
her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect,
that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they
didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he
checked with the FBI and they were all right, or words to that effect.
Mr. JENNER. You used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently
you made a mistake. Do you recall that?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In this connection, what do you mean by that?
Mr. GLOVER. I referred directly to one thing, I made the mistake of
assuming that a man in his situation--of assuming that, because this
man had the history of having been in Russia, apparently, and had
brought his Russian wife with him, and so forth, that the FBI would
know all about it, and although I was very much perplexed by him, I
felt that he must be not a dangerous person. I don't think the FBI
thought he was as dangerous as he was, and I think I made a mistake
when I assumed that they could know that he was harmless. I assumed
that the FBI would know about such a person, and in having this
conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do
that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any contact with the FBI prior to November 22,
1963, concerning the Oswalds, or either of them?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not.
Mr. JENNER. Did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls
or had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of Oswald on this first occasion
that you met him?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get too much of an impression. I didn't
really talk to him very much.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get an impression of him being a man of education,
or lack of it?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly got the impression that he was someone who had
a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life.
Mr. JENNER. Very much in his life in the way of material things?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. Or very much in the way of an education?
Mr. GLOVER. Material, educational, and spiritual.
Mr. JENNER. Spiritual or education or material?
Mr. GLOVER. That is the impression I got, but it's hard to put that
down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. My impression does
not come very much from the first meeting where I did not talk to him
very much. Subsequently talking with Schmidt and the subsequent meeting
at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from
that total rather than any detailed thing he said.
Mr. JENNER. Then I will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what
your impression of Oswald was? Let's say, as of November 21, 1963? I
am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but I
am trying to fix a cutoff period.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I came to the conclusion that he was, in the first
place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. He was
not satisfied with what was in this country originally. He was not
satisfied with the life in Russia. And he was not adjusting at all when
he came back, so he was very maladjusted.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression that, or did you have the
impression that he was generally a maladjusted person?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, certainly from his whole situation I would conclude
that he was maladjusted. In the course of fitting into a social and
political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in.
Mr. JENNER. Had you had the impression then that he was not a person
of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for
travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you
moved?
Mr. GLOVER. Oh, yes; I had the impression that he did not have a
capacity to do that. My best word to describe him, my own personal
word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. He did not adjust anywhere. He
obviously didn't get along with his wife. He was very----
Mr. JENNER. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in
her presence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the
description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a
very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed
things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This
includes his relationship to other people, like his wife.
Mr. JENNER. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring
out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts
said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the
Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived
in regard to that. They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say
community, I mean a circle of people.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence
of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De
Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they
didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into
the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And
he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the
picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. And such people who
cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are
not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife.
This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De
Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the
Oswalds being antagonistic to each other.
Mr. JENNER. Now this first occasion then was an evening at the De
Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior
notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and
met them?
Mr. GLOVER. No.
Mr. JENNER. You knew in advance?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe they said when they called that these people were
going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that
struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening?
Mr. GLOVER. I'm not sure.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Or at least a language that was not English?
Mr. GLOVER. I really couldn't be sure on that point.
Mr. JENNER. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I
believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'.
Mr. JENNER. Was that at your home?
Mr. GLOVER. That was at my home.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing,
and who was there.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this
first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar
Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and
we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow,
like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an
unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my
experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the
fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also
said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of
that. Who made the statement to you?
Mr. GLOVER. One of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr. JENNER. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle
remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it
several times?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In talking to you about the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. They did say collectively--I mean--they did say
affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse
to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the
English language?
Mr. GLOVER. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her.
Mr. JENNER. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now.
Mr. GLOVER. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an
acquaintance of mine----
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine?
Mr. GLOVER. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the
Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had
members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I
remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56,
I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the
Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing
some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more
than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with
the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs
around the town.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him prior to this time?
Mr. GLOVER. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the
church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe
she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church.
Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I
remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing
group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the
singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir.
Mr. JENNER. Was this kind of a madrigal group?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the
membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead about your party.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few
occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking
with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party,
at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was
going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she
was trying to brush up on the Russian, on--or maybe I am just thinking
she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really
know--I think at that time I was aware of the fact she had majored in
Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's
wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her,
and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be
interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said
she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent
that you knew about them at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I am sure I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or
knowledge of the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was
brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.
Mr. JENNER. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as
Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about
the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At
the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory,
Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.
Mr. JENNER. Did she speak Russian?
Mr. GLOVER. No; she did not.
Mr. JENNER. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty
MacDonald?
Mr. GLOVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a
hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us,
that were living together. I am sure he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were
separated?
Mr. GLOVER. I was.
Mr. JENNER. As of that time?
Mr. GLOVER. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited
him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her
because of the Russian.
Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the
situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he
said he would come and he came.
Mr. JENNER. Is he a married man?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?
Mr. GLOVER. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression
at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had
taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school
and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive
he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian
and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.
I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I
talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.
Mr. JENNER. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as
to who attended your party?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I don't call it a party.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop
in?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were
going somewhere.
Mr. JENNER. Did the discussion take place--were there any discussions
during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his
political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there were discussions.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about them.
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may
be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present,
but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned
this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall
impression--he was apparently a Marxist.
Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words
himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce
or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what
a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their
style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else
present said he was a Marxist----
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any,
between Marxism and Communism?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called
Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist
theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't
like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.
Mr. JENNER. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure
up to those theories?
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently so.
Mr. JENNER. His so-called ideals?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, he had--what he had come back to here in
America didn't measure up to what he----
Mr. GLOVER. Apparently. He said so.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on
this occasion?
Mr. GLOVER. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the
impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he
said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all
to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't
think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in
the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American
system measured up to his ideals.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in
Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; there was considerable.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some
kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I
don't remember really too many strong impressions.
The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were
the--was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia
after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was
the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or
conversation with his wife.
Mr. JENNER. That occurred at this meeting at your house?
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so, yes.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call
them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that
arranged?
Mr. GLOVER. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived.
By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and
they were living in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De
Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone
number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone
number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the
house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he
would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De
Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address
and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to
throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses,
I copied it down in my address book. I just in--I just had a feeling I
ought to record this.
Mr. JENNER. He lived on Elsbeth Street?
Mr. GLOVER. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I
remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the
photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a
printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come
over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over
and pick him up. My wife remembers that I was down at the ice rink
skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald
or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an
automobile and operate an automobile?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not recall anything said about that.
Mr. JENNER. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this
party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be
a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being
associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful
that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering
for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some
other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a
gathering.
Mr. JENNER. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event.
Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he
expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your
impression of the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said
specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did
not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is
partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the
impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type
of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope,
but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something
like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it
was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their
experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction
certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize
the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it.
And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember
specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good
impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with
things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was
going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I
remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't
remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the--it might have
been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to
woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night
or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on
another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought
out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have
been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone.
An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of
the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were--who
were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50
years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was
the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the
treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there
were Cubans.
Mr. JENNER. It seems what?
Mr. GLOVER. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans
who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being
indoctrinated.
Mr. JENNER. This is while they were in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. This is while they were in Russia, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of
some Cubans being in Russia?
Mr. GLOVER. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume
this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word.
Mr. JENNER. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having
actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the
treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it
didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did
talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they
were really treated well.
Mr. JENNER. The Cubans were?
Mr. GLOVER. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything
they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the
Cubans, as it were, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the
Cubans?
Mr. GLOVER. I could not remember any specific view about them, but
I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were
there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that
the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in
all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making
statements, but he would give the impression that these people must
have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians.
Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated
very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about
his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro.
Mr. JENNER. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to
conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now
recall?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at
the moment.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife
very much.
Mr. JENNER. When she talked to Marina, in what language did she speak?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't
believe Marina was able to converse in English.
Mr. JENNER. Did she translate for Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I believe she did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald translate for her?
Mr. GLOVER. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that
he did.
Mr. JENNER. This was in a house or in an apartment?
Mr. GLOVER. It was in a house.
Mr. JENNER. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather
together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature,
were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general
vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and
interplay?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only
person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she
was the only woman.
Mr. JENNER. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and
leave right away?
Mr. GLOVER. They stayed a very brief time.
Mr. JENNER. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody
other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina,
is that a fair statement?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the
beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9
o'clock and stayed a short while and left.
Mr. JENNER. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of
that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it
was about the system, he didn't know.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a
corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in
communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site
anywhere? So far, that is a fairly general statement?
Mr. GLOVER. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want
to elaborate on in that connection?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was
essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated,
what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the
answer.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any impression as to why, if you had an
impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English?
And if so, what was that impression?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting
to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual
situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of
the two is much, is very much the dominating person.
Mr. JENNER. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple?
Mr. GLOVER. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I
heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could
get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I
assumed she was staying with him.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently,
as to whether he was a stable person?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly
well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was
very candid, but I felt----
Mr. JENNER. You did not think he was very candid?
Mr. GLOVER. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that
whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had
the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would
go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I
did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the
impression of him being violent, which later came out, and----
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who
was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of
life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that
point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly
of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had
another job--I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got
a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got
a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he
was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person
lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that
connection, or did you acquire?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he
discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He
apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in
spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in
this--in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I
am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of
hindsight.
Mr. JENNER. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to
get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man.
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression
of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what
he wanted at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of
knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man
whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he
really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity
since, what his regions of reaching and desires were?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person
in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he
had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he
probably never would discover what he was going to live by--of course I
didn't keep contact with him after this meeting--and, consequently, had
no further chance to observe him.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to talk about that in a moment.
Mr. GLOVER. Okay.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the
world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his
lot in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he
would rationalize to avoid self-analysis?
Mr. GLOVER. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the
time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because
I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an
interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about
something by somebody who might have some status in society where he
didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly
bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and
unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment.
Mr. JENNER. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you
recall, concerning the United States?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about
the system not being a satisfactory one.
Mr. JENNER. Was President Kennedy mentioned?
Mr. GLOVER. I do not believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or
supporting any particular political causes?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he did not say anything about that at all.
Mr. JENNER. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might
or could be or was--might be or could be or was a person given to
violence?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to
violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife,
apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think
that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say,
but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or
something like this.
Mr. JENNER. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds?
Mr. GLOVER. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this
because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house
where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it
was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure.
It was nothing of significance that existed.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time
subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence
of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in
early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess
it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a
record player which they had loaned me.
Mr. JENNER. From the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and
Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts)
wanted to give the record player to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. The De Mohrenschildts?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and
I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob
Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us
and left it off at Marina's place.
Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up
before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up
by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was
wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was
going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but
apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a
house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door
in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat
of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the
name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was the first----
Mr. JENNER. Neely Street?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because
it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth.
Mr. JENNER. In any event, this was an apartment building or home
different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. So I gave her the record player.
Mr. JENNER. Gave it to her?
Mr. GLOVER. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do.
Mr. JENNER. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time?
Mr. GLOVER. No; he was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know he was not there?
Mr. GLOVER. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure
about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there,
because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over
there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had
the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to
explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression
he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had
with Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. That was the last time I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time
thereafter?
Mr. GLOVER. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after
that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not
sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record
player--I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her
that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and
that she--first of all, the events after that went like this.
The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and
had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the
Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that
Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and
also left to go to New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. This was in the spring of 1963?
Mr. GLOVER. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at
this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in
New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to
New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I
do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think
I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having
heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house
until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and
had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over
and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought
the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but
I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you
from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his
remarks about what you have testified:
"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child,
we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told
us he was completely harmless?"
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was
quoting what he said.
Mr. JENNER. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to
Marina?
Mr. GLOVER. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record
player, that she had gone to New Orleans.
Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than
that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems
it must have been after I was married and I was still living on
Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had
records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for
Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and
what to do with them?
And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember
talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me
and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time
Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me
that, I am not sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming
back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his
job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time I believe----
Mr. JENNER. Was coming back to live or was visiting?
Mr. GLOVER. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was
coming back here.
Mr. JENNER. Lost his job in New Orleans?
Mr. GLOVER. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the
last I heard of them until the event of November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Glover, that has
occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you
think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the
assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I
have questioned you, and--or anything else that you think might help
the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths
with respect to that tragic event?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value
to add.
Mr. JENNER. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may,
if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to
you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of
waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege
of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and
sign it. And you also have the privilege of waiving that right. Do you
have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment?
Mr. GLOVER. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I
don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a
technicality. Maybe I should ask someone.
Mr. JENNER. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you
wish to, if you prefer--that you read your deposition over it will be
available to you next week, should you so desire.
Mr. GLOVER. I believe so. I think I would like to read it.
Mr. JENNER. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will
call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript
will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call
them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the
deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections
or additions.
Mr. GLOVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With this I have no further questions. I have only
this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and
inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your
personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing
personal on my part.
Mr. GLOVER. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a
question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what
I know about such a situation.
Mr. JENNER. All right, that is where we are at the moment.