To the honorable EDWARD M. HOUSE,
Hotel Crillon, Paris.
Senator KNOX. Did you get a reply to that?
Mr. BULLITT. Col. House sent for me, and after that we had a
conversation. That was the only reply that I had. I had a conversation
with Col. House on the whole matter, and we thrashed it all out.
Senator KNOX. Was anything said during this conversation which you
feel willing or disposed to tell us, which will be important?
Mr. BULLITT. I made a record of the conversation. Inasmuch as the
conversations which I had with various members of the commission on
the occasion of my resignation touched on a number of important
issues, I kept a record of those conversations, that is, those I had
at the time when I resigned. They are the only conversations of which
I made records, and I made them simply because we did deal more or
less with the entire question of the peace treaty. On the other hand,
they are personal conversations, and I hesitate to repeat them, unless
the committee considers it particularly important.
Senator KNOX. I would not press you on the personal conversations
which you had with Col. House after you resigned. I leave the matter
to your own judgment. I wondered whether there might have been
something which transpired which you would care to tell us; but I
withdraw that suggestion. I should like to ask you this one question:
I suppose your letter of resignation to Mr. Lansing was merely formal?
Mr. BULLITT. My letter of resignation to Mr. Lansing was a formal
letter.
Senator KNOX. You certainly got a reply to that.
Mr. BULLITT. I did, sir. I wrote a formal letter and I got a formal
reply, and the Secretary sent for me the same afternoon and explained
that he only sent me a formal reply because it was necessary, because
of the form in which I had put my resignation, and particularly
because I had appended to my note my letter to the President. We then
discussed various other matters in connection with the treaty.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you through?
Senator KNOX. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bullitt, you put into the record or read here, I
think, some extracts from the minutes of the Council of Ten?
Mr. BULLITT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Were you present at any of these meetings?
Mr. BULLITT. I was not, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The Council of Ten was the first body that was dealing
with the treaty generally, the important body? It was not a special
commission?
Mr. BULLITT. No, sir. It was the main body of the conference.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it was the main body, and was the one that
subsequently became the Council of Five, and then the Council of Four,
and I think at one time a Council of Three?
Mr. BULLITT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, now, there were records of these meetings, were
there not?
Mr. BULLITT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what disposition was made of those records?
Mr. BULLITT. Mr. Chairman, there were a number of copies for each
delegation, and I presume that there must be a number of copies in
this country at the present time; perhaps not.
The CHAIRMAN. You say each delegate had a copy?
Mr. BULLITT. Each plenipotentiary had a copy, and the Secretary of the
American Commission had a copy, I believe, and the assistant
secretaries had copies; certainly one of the assistant secretaries,
Mr. Leland Harrison; and Mr. Grew had a copy.
The CHAIRMAN. Did Mr. Lansing have copies while he served on the
Council of Ten?
Mr. BULLITT. Yes, sir; well, I am quite sure that he did. I am sure
that I have seen copies on the desk of the Secretary.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, they were furnished regularly to every member of
the conference?
Mr. BULLITT. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. We have found some difficulty in getting them; that is
the reason I asked.
Senator KNOX. I am informed--perhaps Mr. Bullitt can tell us--that
there is a complete set of minutes in the hands of some individual in
this country. Do you know anything about that--perhaps Auchincloss &
Miller?
Mr. BULLITT. I could not be certain in regard to the matter, but I
should certainly be under the impression that Mr. Auchincloss and Mr.
Miller have copies of the minutes; perhaps not. Perhaps Mr.
Auchincloss has left his with Col. House. He would have Col. House's
copies. Perhaps they are in this country, perhaps not. But Mr.
Auchincloss and Mr. Miller perhaps have those minutes in their files.
The CHAIRMAN. Undoubtedly there are a number, at least, of those
records in existence.
Mr. BULLITT. Certainly, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That must be the case.
Mr. BULLITT. Certainly, sir. Also records of the meetings of the
American Commission.
Senator BRANDEGEE. Do you know whether or not they are in the State
Department--any of these minutes or records in our State Department?
Mr. BULLITT. I should presume that in the normal course of events they
would be certainly among Mr. Lansing's papers, which were very
carefully kept. He had an excellent secretariat.
The CHAIRMAN. Did any member of our delegation, any member of the
council of 10, express to you any opinions about the general character
of this treaty?
Mr. BULLITT. Well, Mr. Lansing, Col. House, Gen. Bliss, and Mr. White
had all expressed to me very vigorously their opinions on the subject.
The CHAIRMAN. Were they enthusiastically in favor of it?
Mr. BULLITT. I regret to say, not.
As I say, the only documents of the sort that I have are the memoranda
of the discussions that I had after I resigned, when we thrashed over
the whole ground.
The CHAIRMAN. Those memoranda of consultations that you had after you
resigned you prefer not to publish? I am not asking you to do so.
Mr. BULLITT. I think it would be out of the way.
The CHAIRMAN. I quite understand your position. I only wanted to
know--I thought it might be proper for you to say whether or not their
opinions which you heard them express were favorable to the series of
arrangements, I would call them, that were made for the consideration
of this treaty.
Mr. BULLITT. It is no secret that Mr. Lansing, Gen. Bliss, and Mr.
Henry White objected very vigorously to the numerous provisions of the
treaty.
The CHAIRMAN. It is known that they objected to Shantung. That, I
think, is public information. I do not know that it is public
information that they objected to anything else.
Mr. BULLITT. I do not think that Secretary Lansing is at all
enthusiastic about the league of nations as it stands at present. I
have a note of a conversation with him on the subject, which, if I
may, I will just read, without going into the rest of that
conversation, because it bears directly on the issue involved.
This was a conversation with the Secretary of State at 2.30 on May 19.
The Secretary sent for me. It was a long conversation, and Mr. Lansing
in the course of it said:
Mr. Lansing then said that he personally would have strengthened
greatly the judicial clauses of the league of nations covenant, making
arbitration compulsory. He also said that he was absolutely opposed to
the United States taking a mandate in either Armenia or
Constantinople; that he thought that Constantinople should be placed
under a local government, the chief members of which were appointed by
an international committee.
This is a matter, it seems to me, of some importance in regard to the
whole discussion, and therefore I feel at liberty to read it, as it is
not a personal matter.
The CHAIRMAN. This is a note of the conversation made at the time?
Mr. BULLITT. This is a note which I immediately dictated after the
conversation. [Reading:]
Mr. Lansing then said that he, too, considered many parts of
the treaty thoroughly bad, particularly those dealing with
Shantung and the league of nations. He said: "I consider
that the league of nations at present is entirely useless.
The great powers have simply gone ahead and arranged the
world to suit themselves. England and France in particular
have gotten out of the treaty everything that they wanted,
and the league of nations can do nothing to alter any of the
unjust clauses of the treaty except by unanimous consent of
the members of the league, and the great powers will never
give their consent to changes in the interests of weaker
peoples."
We then talked about the possibility of ratification by the Senate.
Mr. Lansing said: "I believe that if the Senate could only understand
what this treaty means, and if the American people could really
understand, it would unquestionably be defeated, but I wonder if they
will ever understand what it lets them in for." He expressed the
opinion that Mr. Knox would probably really understand the treaty--
[Laughter.] May I reread it?
He expressed the opinion that Mr. Knox would probably really
understand the treaty, and that Mr. Lodge would; but that Mr. Lodge's
position would become purely political, and therefore ineffective.
[Laughter.]
The CHAIRMAN. I do not mind.
Mr. BULLITT (reading):
He thought, however, that Mr. Knox might instruct America in the real
meaning of it.
[Laughter.]
The CHAIRMAN. He has made some very valuable efforts in the direction.
Mr. BULLITT. I beg to be excused from reading any
more of these conversations.
Senator BRANDEGEE. We get the drift.
[Laughter.]