M. Clemenceau said they had met together to decide what
could be done in Russia under present circumstances.
President Wilson said that in order to have something
definite to discuss, he wished to take advantage of a
suggestion made by Mr. Lloyd George and to propose a
modification of the British proposal. He wished to suggest
that the various organized groups in Russia should be asked
to send representatives, not to Paris, but to some other
place, such as Salonika, convenient of approach, there to
meet such representatives as might be appointed by the
Allies, in order to see if they could draw up a program upon
which agreement could be reached.
Mr. Lloyd George pointed out that the advantage of this
would be that they could be brought straight there from
Russia through the Black Sea without passing through other
countries.
M. Sonnino said that some of the representatives of the
various Governments were already here in Paris, for example,
M. Sazonov. Why should these not be heard?
President Wilson expressed the view that the various parties
should not be heard separately. It would be very desirable
to get all these representatives in one place, and still
better, all in one room, in order to obtain a close
comparison of views.
Mr. Balfour said that a further objection to Mr. Sonnino's
plan was that if M. Sazonov was heard in Paris, it would be
difficult to refuse to hear the others in Paris also, and M.
Clemenceau objected strongly to having some of these
representatives in Paris.
M. Sonnino explained that all the Russian parties had some
representatives here, except the Soviets, whom they did not
wish to hear.
Mr. Lloyd George remarked that the Bolshevists were the very
people some of them wished to hear.
M. Sonnino continuing said that they had heard M. Litovnov's
statements that morning.
That was the statement that Litvinov had made to Buckler which the
President had read to the council of ten that morning.
[Continuing reading.]
The Allies were now fighting against the Bolshevists who
were their enemies, and therefore they were not obliged to
hear them with the others.
Mr. Balfour remarked that the essence of President Wilson's
proposal was that the parties must all be heard at one and
the same time.
Mr. Lloyd George expressed the view that the acceptance of
M. Sonnino's proposals would amount to their hearing a
string of people, all of whom held the same opinion, and all
of whom would strike the same note. But they would not hear
the people who at the present moment were actually
controlling European Russia. In deference to M. Clemenceau's
views, they had put forward this new proposal. He thought it
would be quite safe to bring the Bolshevist representatives
to Salonika, or perhaps to Lemnos.
It was absolutely necessary to endeavor to make peace. The
report read by President Wilson that morning went to show
that the Bolshevists were not convinced of the error of
their ways, but they apparently realised the folly of their
present methods. Therefore they were endeavouring to come to
terms.
President Wilson asked to be permitted to urge one aspect of
the case. As M. Sonnino had implied, they were all repelled
by Bolshevism, and for that reason they had placed armed men
in opposition to them. One of the things that was clear in
the Russian situation was that by opposing Bolshevism with
arms, they were in reality serving the cause of Bolshevism.
The Allies were making it possible for the Bolsheviks to
argue that Imperialistic and Capitalistic Governments were
endeavouring to exploit the country and to give the land
back to the landlords, and so bring about a re-action. If it
could be shown that this was not true, and that the Allies
were prepared to deal with the rulers of Russia, much of the
moral force of this argument would disappear. The allegation
that the Allies were against the people and wanted to
control their affairs provided the argument which enabled
them to raise armies. If, on the other hand, the Allies
could swallow their pride and the natural repulsion which
they felt for the Bolshevists and see the representatives of
all organized groups in one place, he thought it would bring
about a marked reaction against Bolshevism.
M. Clemenceau said that, in principle, he did not favour
conversation with the Bolshevists; not because they were
criminals, but because we would be raising them to our level
by saying that they were worthy of entering into
conversation with us. The Bolshevist danger was very great
at the present moment. Bolshevism was spreading. It had
invaded the Baltic Provinces and Poland, and that very
morning they received very bad news regarding its spread to
Budapesth and Vienna. Italy, also, was in danger. The danger
was probably greater there than in France. If Bolshevism,
after spreading in Germany, were to traverse Austria and
Hungary and so reach Italy, Europe would be faced with a
very great danger. Therefore, something must be done against
Bolshevism. When listening to the document presented by
President Wilson that morning, he had been struck by the
cleverness with which the Bolshevists were attempting to lay
a trap for the Allies. When the Bolshevists first came into
power, a breach was made with the Capitalist Government on
questions of principle, but now they offered funds and
concessions as a basis for treating with them. He need not
say how valueless their promises were, but if they were
listened to, the Bolshevists would go back to their people
and say: "We offered them great principles of justice and
the Allies would have nothing to do with us. Now we offer
money, and they are ready to make peace."
He admitted his remarks did not offer a solution. The great
misfortune was that the Allies were in need of a speedy
solution. After four years of war, and the losses and
sufferings they had incurred, their populations could stand
no more. Russia also was in need of immediate peace. But its
necessary evolution must take time. The signing of the world
Peace could not await Russia's final avatar. Had time been
available, he would suggest waiting, for eventually sound
men representing common-sense would come to the top. But
when would that be? He could make no forecast. Therefore
they must press for an early solution.
To sum up, had he been acting by himself, he would temporize
and erect barriers to prevent Bolshevism from spreading. But
he was not alone, and in the presence of his colleagues he
felt compelled to make some concession, as it was essential
that there should not be even the appearance of disagreement
amongst them. The concession came easier after having heard
President Wilson's suggestions. He thought that they should
make a very clear and convincing appeal to all reasonable
peoples, emphatically stating that they did not wish in any
way to interfere in the internal affairs of Russia, and
especially that they had no intention of restoring Czardom.
The object of the Allies being to hasten the creation of a
strong Government, they proposed to call together
representatives of all parties to a Conference. He would beg
President Wilson to draft a paper, fully explaining the
position of the Allies to the whole world, including the
Russians and the Germans.
Mr. Lloyd George agreed and gave notice that he wished to
withdraw his own motion in favour of President Wilson's.
Mr. Balfour said that he understood that all these people
were to be asked on an equality. On these terms he thought
the Bolshevists would refuse, and by their refusal, they
would put themselves in a very bad position.
M. Sonnino said that he did not agree that the Bolshevists
would not come. He thought they would be the first to come,
because they would be eager to put themselves on an equality
with the others. He would remind his colleagues that, before
the Peace of Brest-Litovsk was signed, the Bolshevists
promised all sorts of things, such as to refrain from
propaganda, but since that peace had been concluded they had
broken all their promises, their one idea being to spread
revolution in all other countries. His idea was to collect
together all the anti-Bolshevik parties and help them to
make a strong Government, provided they pledged themselves
not to serve the forces of re-action and especially not to
touch the land question, thereby depriving the Bolshevists
of their strongest argument. Should they take these pledges,
he would be prepared to help them.
Mr. Lloyd George enquired how this help would be given.
M. Sonnino replied that help would be given with soldiers to
a reasonable degree or by supplying arms, food, and money.
For instance, Poland asked for weapons and munitions; the
Ukraine asked for weapons. All the Allies wanted was to
establish a strong Government. The reason that no strong
Government at present existed was that no party could risk
taking the offensive against Bolshevism without the
assistance of the Allies. He would enquire how the parties
of order could possibly succeed without the help of the
Allies. President Wilson had said that they should put aside
all pride in the matter. He would point out that, for Italy
and probably for France also, as M. Clemenceau had stated,
it was in reality a question of self-defence. He thought
that even a partial recognition of the Bolshevists would
strengthen their position, and, speaking for himself, he
thought that Bolshevism was already a serious danger in his
country.
Mr. Lloyd George said he wished to put one or two practical
questions to M. Sonnino. The British Empire now had some
15,000 to 20,000 men in Russia. M. de Scavenius had
estimated that some 150,000 additional men would be
required, in order to keep the anti-Bolshevist Governments
from dissolution. And General Franchet d'Esperey also
insisted on the necessity of Allied assistance. Now Canada
had decided to withdraw her troops, because the Canadian
soldiers would not agree to stay and fight against the
Russians. Similar trouble had also occurred amongst the
other Allied troops. And he felt certain that, if the
British tried to send any more troops there, there would be
mutiny.