interest of France and Spain with respect to America were so
distinct, as necessarily to render different treaties
necessary. Mr Jay answered, that admitting this to be the
case, the treaty with France might be made the basis, and
then go on _mutatis mutandis_. The Count proceeded to say,
that it would not conduce to the general pacification to
hurry on the treaty; that finding Congress were not disposed
to cessions, without which the King would not make a treaty,
he thought it best by mutual services and acts of friendship,
to continue making way for more condescensions on both sides,
and not excite animosities and warmth by discussing points
which the King would never yield. That, therefore, Mr Jay
might take time to write to Congress on the subject, and
obtain their instructions.
He said, that previous to Mr Jay's or M. Gerard's arrival at
Madrid, M. Mirales had informed him that Congress would yield
the navigation of the Mississippi, but that M. Gerard
informed him that Congress had changed their resolution on
that subject; that he had mentioned these obstacles to Mr Jay
and Mr Carmichael, and it was probable that having done this,
he had neglected or forgotten to give Mr Jay the notes in
question. Mr Jay here reminded his Excellency, that the
conference between them of the 2d day of June last turned
among other points on these obstacles, and that they had then
mutually expressed hopes that regulations calculated to
remove them in a manner satisfactory to both parties might be
adopted, and that the conferences respecting them were
concluded by his Excellency's promising to give Mr Jay notes
of his sentiments on the proposed treaty. The Count admitted
this, and made several observations tending to show the
importance of this object to Spain, and its determination to
adhere to it, saying, with some degree of warmth, that unless
Spain could exclude all nations from the Gulf of Mexico, they
might as well admit all; that the King would never relinquish
it; that the Minister regarded it as the principal object to
be obtained by the war, and _that obtained_, he should be
perfectly easy whether or no Spain procured any other
cession; that he considered it far more important than the
acquisition of Gibraltar, and that if they did not get it, it
was a matter of indifference to him whether the English
possessed Mobile or not; that he chose always to speak his
sentiments plainly and candidly on those occasions, for which
reason he generally acted differently from other politicians,
in always choosing to commit himself to paper, and appealing
to the knowledge of the French Ambassador and others, who had
done business with him, for the proofs of this being the
principle of his conduct. He concluded by saying he would
give his sentiments in writing on this subject to Mr Jay.
Mr Jay made no reply to the Count's remarks on the
navigation, but observing, that being little acquainted with
the practice of politicians, he was happy in having to treat
with a Minister of his Excellency's principles. He added,
that there were many points necessary to be adjusted in order
to a treaty; that they might proceed to agree upon as many as
they could, and with respect to the others, he should state
them clearly to Congress, and attend their further
instructions.
Mr Jay then again turned the conference to the paper
beforementioned, by observing to the Count, that it appeared
from it, that the King also expected from Congress
equivalents to the supplies formerly afforded, and also the
expenses of the war, which it alleged had its origin from
them. That as to the first he could only repeat what he had
before said, that a general account of them was necessary.
That he neither knew the amount of them, nor the terms on
which they were granted; that it was a transaction previous
to his appointment; that on being furnished with the
necessary information, he would transmit it to Congress, and
wait their instructions; that an expectation of an equivalent
to the expenses sustained by Spain in the war, was
inadmissible on every principle. He read the passage in
question and remarked, that America could no more be justly
chargeable with the expenses of the war sustained by Spain,
than Spain could be justly chargeable with the expenses of
the war sustained by America. The Count replied, that Mr Jay
had mistaken his meaning, and that he urged it merely to show
that as the States were deriving considerable advantages from
very expensive operations on the part of Spain, that
consideration should incline them to more condescension
towards the latter.
Mr Jay assured his Excellency that he knew it to be the
disposition of Congress to contribute all in their power to
the success of the common cause, and that they would on
every occasion give proofs of it, and among others, that he
was confident they would permit his Majesty to export from
thence, _during the war_, ship timber and masts for the royal
navy, and would readily consent to such measures as might be
proper and necessary for facilitating it. He further observed
that having been informed by M. Gardoqui that his Majesty
would like to take and finish a seventyfour gun ship now on
the stocks in one of the eastern ports, on which it was said
no work was doing, he would with pleasure write to Congress,
and propose their transferring her to his Majesty at prime
cost. That this previous step was necessary, as Congress
might perhaps intend that vessel for particular services, but
he was confident they would otherwise be happy in indulging
his Majesty's inclinations. The Count appeared pleased with
this. He said, that with respect to timber they stood most in
need at present of yards, and should be glad to obtain a
supply of them from Congress. That as to the ship, he wished
to be informed exactly of her present state, and the
materials wanted to complete and equip her, which he observed
might be sent from the Havana, and whether a crew of
Americans could be had to navigate her there. Mr Jay replied,
that though he was sure that Congress would readily give
their aid in these and other matters interesting to Spain,
yet he could not forbear reminding his Excellency as a
friend, that public business done under the direction of
public bodies was always more expensive than when done by
individuals. That, therefore, he would submit it to his
consideration whether it would not be more advisable to
commit the management of those affairs to the agent, intended
to succeed M. Mirales, who, by being on the spot, would have
opportunities of acting on exact information, and in a
manner more consistent with the views of his Excellency. The
Count agreed in this opinion, and promised to communicate to
Mr Jay his further intentions on this subject.
Mr Jay informed the Minister, that as his further stay here
would now be unnecessary, and business called him to Madrid,
he purposed to return there on Monday next. The Count
concurred and the conference ended.
Congress will permit me to observe that many things in this conference
are important, and demand instructions. I forbear to point them out,
because they are obvious; and I take the liberty of giving this hint
from a knowledge of the delays attending the proceedings of large
bodies.
I returned to Madrid on the day appointed; and whether to accept or
not to accept the bills became a very serious question. After
reviewing all the reasons for and against it, which are numerous, and
which Congress will readily perceive without a particular enumeration,
I determined to put a good face on the business, and accept all that
should be presented, which I have accordingly done, and am daily
doing. What the event will be I cannot pretend to decide. All that I
can say is, that my endeavors shall not be wanting to render it
successful. The responsibility of the King will not produce much, and
the difficulty of borrowing money has been increased, by the number of
agents sent to Europe for that purpose by several of the different
States, who I am told have imprudently bidden on each other.
M. Gardoqui returned to Madrid a few days after I did, and brought me
word from the Minister, that instructions should be sent to their
Ambassadors in Holland and France, to assure in due form the
responsibility of the King to such persons as might there incline to
lend us money on the credit of it, and that the Minister would do the
same here. He told me further, that the Minister hoped I would not be
discouraged, nor consider this only on the dark side, for that it was
still his intention to afford America every aid in his power. All this
I ascribe to the exertions of America, and I am confident, that it will
always be necessary for the United States to be formidable at home, if
they expect to be respectable anywhere.
For my own part, I shall be disappointed, if I find Courts moving on
any other principle than political ones, and, indeed, not always on
those. Caprice, whim, the interests and passions of individuals, must
and will always have greater or less degrees of influence. America
stands very high here, at present. I rejoice at it, though I must
confess I much fear that such violent exertions may be followed by
languor and relaxation. What the plan of this Court is with respect to
us, or whether they have any, is with me very doubtful. If they have
rejected all the overtures of Britain, why is Mr Cumberland still
here? And why are expresses passing between Madrid and London through
Portugal? If Spain is determined that we shall be independent, why not
openly declare us so, and thereby diminish the hopes and endeavors of
Britain to prevent it? She seems to be desirous of holding the
balance, of being in some sort a mediatrix, and of courting the offers
of each by her supposed importance to both. The drawing of bills on me
was considered as a desperate measure, prompted by our imbecility, and
was a bad card to play at a time we were endeavoring to form a treaty,
and when prudence demanded that the importance of Spain to us should
not have been brought forward, or placed in such a glaring point of
view.
One good consequence, however, has resulted from it. The cordiality of
Spain has been tried by it. For I know of a certainty, that it was in
her power easily to have made the loan we asked. Indeed, we shall
always be deceived, if we believe that any nation in the world has, or
will have, a disinterested regard for us, especially absolute
monarchies, where the temporary views or passions of the Prince, his
Ministers, his women, or his favorites, not the voice of the people,
direct the helm of State. Besides, from the manner in which the war is
carrying on, it would seem as if it was the design of France and Spain
that the longest _purse_, not the longest _sword_, should decide it.
Whether such be really their intention, or how far it may be politic,
I cannot pretend to determine. This, however, is certain, that it
would be putting the affair on a hard issue for us. It is also
certain, that some respect is due to appearances and probable events,
and we should be cautious how we spend our money, our men, or our
public spirit, uselessly.
In my opinion, we should endeavor to be as independent on the charity
of our friends, as on the mercy of our enemies. Jacob took advantage
even of his brother's hunger, and extorted from him a higher price
than the value of the Mississippi even for a single dinner. The way
not to be in _Esau's_ condition, is to be prepared to meet with
_Jacob's_.
From what I can learn of the King's character, I am persuaded, that a
present from Congress of a handsome fast sailing packet boat would be
very acceptable, and consequently very useful.
I am informed, and believe, that a loan from individuals in France is
impracticable. Here nothing can be done in that way. What may be
expected from the like attempts in Holland, I am unable to say.
I have received no answer to my letter to Count de Vergennes; the
Ambassador informs me, that the Count has written him on the subject,
and the following is an extract from his letter.
Translation.
"I doubt whether I shall be able to render Mr Jay the service
he requests of me, independently of what the Ministry has
furnished the Americans in the course of the year. Dr
Franklin is urgent for a million extra, to meet the drafts of
Congress to the 31st of December. I am sensible how important
it is to prevent them from being returned protested, but the
difficulty is to find the means. I shall do my best in this
exigency, but am not sure of success; beyond this, it would
be impossible for me to go."
Dr Franklin has obtained some more money from his Court, and I am to
have twentyfive thousand dollars of it; perhaps he may be able to
advance more, but how much, I cannot say.
_November 1st, 1780._ No orders have as yet been given respecting the
clothing. I have applied and reapplied, and have been promised and
repromised. I employed Mr Harrison, at Cadiz, (with the Minister's
concurrence) to make the purchase, and he has several weeks been
waiting for these orders.
General Gates is defeated, and Mr Laurens in the Tower. Our sky in
this quarter is again darkened with clouds not in my power to dispel.
I had flattered myself with receiving before this time some
regulations respecting American seamen.
The house of Le Couteulx have refused to continue their care of them,
or to advance more money on that account. They complain that the
American Captains under various pretexts refuse to give them passages,
without being paid for them. This is cruel.
The following are copies of their letter to me on the subject, and my
answer.
LE COUTEULX & CO. TO JOHN JAY.
"Cadiz, October 3d, 1780.
"Sir,
"Our supplies for the American sailors amount at this day to
---- We will continue to render them every service in our
power, but will confess to you ingenuously, that if you do
not furnish us with an order from Congress, by which you
empower us to oblige all American Captains, who come here, to
take a certain number of people, in proportion to their bulk,
free of passage, and afterwards so many more on paying them a
certain sum for their provisions, we can advance nothing; as
all the Captains who come here never fail of showing good
motives for not taking any of their fellow countrymen,
without paying them a passage, which forces us to let the
people go on board neutral vessels; and instead of fulfilling
your views of sending them back as soon as possible, this is
a means by which they get still further from it, and a great
many engage in the English service."
TO LE COUTEULX & CO.
"Madrid, October 15th, 1780.
"Gentlemen,
"I have been honored with your favor of the 3d instant, and
am much obliged by your attention to the letter it enclosed.
You were not mistaken in supposing that the handwriting was
mine. That letter was enclosed in one for Mr Harrison, and
sent under cover to you.
"It gives me concern to find that you have so much trouble
with American seamen, and I much lament that it is not in my
power to comply with the terms on which alone you incline to
continue it. I have written more than once to Congress on the
subject, and submitted to their consideration the propriety
of establishing proper regulations for the conduct of that
business, but as yet I have received none. I presume that
their attention has been so engaged by other matters of
higher and more pressing importance, as not to have had
leisure for making these arrangements. The refusal of
American Captains to give passages to their unfortunate
countrymen is certainly unkind. I shall communicate to
Congress, and I hope proper measures will be taken to remove
that obstacle. At any rate, however, I cannot leave these
unhappy captives friendless, in a strange country. The
unfeeling treatment of the Captains rather stimulates than
represses my commiseration, and, therefore, Gentlemen, as it
is not convenient to you to proceed in your care of them, but
on terms not in my power to comply with, I find myself
reduced to the necessity of requesting that favor from
others. For this purpose I have written to Mr Harrison of
your city, and proposed his undertaking it, and have desired
him in case he consented, to mention it to you. On that event
I must beg the favor of you to give him such information and
advice, as may be useful to him in the management of those
affairs. Be pleased also to liquidate your accounts with him;
they shall be paid without further delay.
"The attention and kind offices you have regularly paid to
Americans, and the personal civilities that myself and family
experienced from you, while at Cadiz, will always continue to
excite my warmest acknowledgments, and lead me to omit no
opportunity of convincing you of the esteem and regard, with
which I am, Gentlemen, &c.
JOHN JAY.
I have before mentioned to Congress my difficulties as to
correspondence. They continue, and I am obliged to give Colonel
Livingston the trouble of carrying this letter to Bilboa, and
delivering it with his own hands to the Captain of some American
vessel. Congress might have letters from me every month, if orders
were given to the Captains of the vessels bringing despatches for me,
to send a trusty officer with them to me. I know that all are opened,
and some suppressed, and I can think of no other way of avoiding these
inconveniences. It is important that our correspondence be
uninterrupted.
I have written very particularly, perhaps more so than may be prudent,
but as I think it my duty, I pay no regard to consequences. If
Congress will be equally well satisfied with less minute information,
I wish to be told so, that their direction on this head may govern me
in future. I cannot forbear again observing, that few of their
proceedings remain long secret. I have very good authority for saying
that copies of the letters, which passed between the Committee and the
late Commissioners in France, are now in the hands of a certain
foreigner. How he got them I do not know, but such is the fact, and in
my opinion it calls for more care in future.
If my letters meet with the same fate, my remaining here will become a
useless expense to my country.
I think I have written everything material to enable Congress to know
the exact state of their affairs here. If, however, there should be
any questions to which an answer would be agreeable to Congress, I
wish to be informed of them; for since I left America, I have made it
a rule to be always in a capacity to render a reason for every part of
my conduct, and state with accuracy every fact relative to it.
I have the honor to be, &c.
JOHN JAY.
FOOTNOTE:
[25] A full account of Mr Cumberland's proceedings in Spain may be
found in his _Memoirs_ published many years afterwards.
* * * * *
TO THE PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS.
Madrid, November 30th, 1780.
Sir,
Your Excellency will receive herewith enclosed certain papers from
Morocco, viz.
_No. 1._ Containing a letter of the 21st of April last, to me from
Audibert Caille, who styles himself the "Consul appointed by the
Emperor for such foreign nations as have none of their own in his
dominions, to protect the strangers who may come to traffic in his
ports pursuant to two proclamations published last year."
_No. 2._ My answer.
_No. 3._ Copy of M. Audibert's appointment.
_No. 4._ Copy of a declaration of the Emperor, 20th of February, 1778.
_No. 5._ A letter from M. Audibert Caille to Congress of 6th of
September, 1779. Also, six printed copies of M. Audibert Caille's
certificates.
These papers ought to have been sent with my letters of May last, but
recollecting as I was then about to put them up, that if the originals
should be lost on the passage, it might be difficult to obtain
others, I thought it most prudent to detain them to be copied, and
wait for some other opportunity of getting them to the sea; none has,
however, since occurred, and I did not think them of sufficient
importance to render it necessary that either Mr Carmichael or Colonel
Livingston should carry them to one of the sea ports.
It is proper that your Excellency should be informed, that on the 8th
instant I had a conference with the Minister at the Escurial, in which
I received many good _words_ and friendly assurances, but time only
can decide how they will terminate. I received a letter yesterday from
Mr Harrison, of the 24th instant, and then no orders had arrived about
the clothing. These delays may seem singular, but they are not
uncommon. Mr Cumberland is still here. The French and English fleets
are at sea.
Although appearances are not very flattering at present, I hope they
will in time become more so. Patience, prudence, and perseverance,
sometimes effect much. It is in my opinion very important that no
dissatisfaction be expressed in America at the conduct of Spain.
Complaint and disgust can answer no good purpose, but may be
productive of many disagreeable consequences. A cautious silence is
the more necessary, as I am confident that there are persons in
America, who would make a merit of collecting and transmitting the
sentiments of Congress, or _members_ of Congress, on subjects
interesting to the views and objects of persons in power here.
Colonel Livingston would have returned this fall at the expiration of
the term expressed in his leave of absence, had I not taken the
liberty of advising him to remain, and taken upon myself to adjust
this matter with Congress. As he is employed, and industrious in
obtaining knowledge, which may enable him to be useful in future to
his country, I must join with him in requesting that Congress will be
so kind as to extend his leave of absence to such further period as
may be agreeable to them.
The enclosed paper marked No. 6, is a copy of a State of the Revenues
and Expenditures of Spain, in the year 1778. It was formed by a
Secretary to one of the embassies, and a copy of it was given to Mr
Carmichael. I received it the last day of July, and had no safe
opportunity of sending it before. What credit may be due to this
account I cannot determine, and I have reason to think that there are
few men in the kingdom who can. This government, disposed to
concealment and mystery in most matters, will not probably permit an
accurate knowledge of their revenues to be easily attained. This
account is perhaps as near the truth as any other. The gentleman, it
is said, took much pains in forming it, and it also met with the
approbation of some foreign Ministers; but how far those Ministers
were judges of the subject I am uninformed. The remarks subjoined to
this account are Mr Carmichael's, and were added to the copy I
received from him.
I send copies of several letters, which passed between Messrs de
Neufville and Son, of Amsterdam, and myself, relative to the bills
drawn on Mr Laurens.[26] The conduct of that House has been so
friendly and disinterested, that I think Congress should be
particularly informed of it, and by taking proper notice of it, induce
others to follow the example.
I have the honor to be, &c.
JOHN JAY.
FOOTNOTE:
[26] These have been inserted in the order of their several dates.
* * * * *
No. 1.
FROM D'AUDIBERT CAILLE TO JOHN JAY.
Translation.
Aranjues, April 21st, 1780.
Sir,
By order of his Majesty the Emperor of Morocco, I wrote on the 6th of
September in the last year to the Congress of the United States of
North America, by way of his Excellency Dr Franklin, their
Plenipotentiary at the Court of France, to inform them of the pacific
intentions of that sovereign.
Not having yet received any answer on their part, I fear they have not
received my letter, and by way of precaution, send your Excellency
herewith joined an open copy, that after perusing it, you may make
such use of it as you may think proper. I also send you a copy of the
two manifests therein mentioned, as well as a translation of the
patent of the consuls for foreign nations, with which his Majesty the
Emperor has been pleased to honor me, and some copies of the
certificates which he ordered me to give to the captains of ships,
which sail under his flag.
I wish, Sir, that you may receive all these papers with pleasure, and
I request your Excellency to honor me with an answer, that I may be
able to convince his Majesty, the Emperor of Morocco, that I have
executed the commission he gave me to make known to Congress, that the
subjects of the said United States might come and traffic under their
own flags, in the ports of the empire of Morocco, in the like manner
as they formerly did under the English flag.
Before I had the commission to write to Congress I had already
written on this subject to his Excellency Dr Franklin, and I offered
to interest myself cheerfully in establishing a good understanding
between his Majesty, the Emperor of Morocco, and the Northern United
States.