No. 1, page 2, the top paragraph, to indicate that he was in the
dancehall for the purpose you said, and that he did give out at least
two or three $5 bills, is that right?
Mr. BRANCH. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know whether he went to any other Negro
nightclub on the night of November 23?
Mr. BRANCH. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. BRANCH. I don’t know him at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him before in your life?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him?
Mr. BRANCH. Only in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t identify him with anybody you ever saw?
Mr. BRANCH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his mood, was he sad or glad?
Mr. BRANCH. What do you mean--Mr. Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. BRANCH. You can’t never tell about him--he’s a weird person.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he seem that night?
Mr. BRANCH. He’s always in a hurry. He’s fidgety, you know, he talks
fast.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be crying, grieving, gay, happy, or what?
Mr. BRANCH. He wasn’t too happy--he wasn’t too happy.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you believe that?
Mr. BRANCH. Because he will take time and set down, but this time
he was--he just wanted to know for sure if she’s going to have a
pianoplayer--get his sister a pianoplayer out there because they was
disgusted with the pianoplayer they had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your wife that Mr. Ruby had been there?
Mr. BRANCH. No; I didn’t tell her.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. BRANCH. I didn’t tell her.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife is named Eleanor?
Mr. BRANCH. I didn’t tell her that night.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell her?
Mr. BRANCH. I may have told her 2 or 3 days after.
Mr. HUBERT. She works for Mrs. Mandell?
Mr. BRANCH. That’s right. As soon as she heard it was him, she knew
that we were always taking care of business with him. I sold him the
first band he had in Dallas--Red Calhoun--when he was at the Silver
Spur, and when I got sick the first time, he gave me some money.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby talk about the President’s assassination at
all?
Mr. BRANCH. Nothing; he didn’t say a word.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t say a word?
Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t say a word--he didn’t say anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with the so-called Weissman ad, the ad
that appeared in the paper that had to do with the President, and so
forth?
Mr. BRANCH. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t talk about that?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about any posters that he had seen on the
streets about impeaching the Chief Justice, Mr. Earl Warren?
Mr. BRANCH. No; the only discussion we had was about the pianoplayer
and then him going to the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you said he talked a lot and he was there for about
40 minutes, there must have been something else he talked about all
that time?
Mr. BRANCH. That’s all he talked about--the pianoplayer.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how much talk could there be about him, you mean that
he would be paid, or who he would be or what kind of music he would
play or what?
Mr. BRANCH. That he don’t want no jazz pianoplayer, he wanted just the
straight rhythm and blues pianoplayer.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I’m just trying to see, Mr. Branch, what could
have kept him as long as 30 minutes, if all he talked about was the
pianoplayer?
Mr. BRANCH. That’s mostly what he talked about--and the club. I should
come down to the club and see it. I’ve never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he was going to the club?
Mr. BRANCH. That he was going to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. He was listening to the music?
Mr. BRANCH. He had a new act--he was standing up to the bar talking and
drinking a Coca-Cola, and then he did say something about some reducing
pills I should take--I should take some tablets--I had just came out of
the hospital and had been operated on.
Mr. HUBERT. He thought you were too fat?
Mr. BRANCH. Well, I was.
Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested some pills?
Mr. BRANCH. Well, he had some--vitamins.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you some?
Mr. BRANCH. No; he didn’t give me none of them, but he said he had some
vitamins he was using.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment on the fact that some of his competitors
like Mr. Abe Weinstein were keeping their nightclubs open while he was
closing his?
Mr. BRANCH. He didn’t mention that.
Mr. HUBERT. You know the Colony Club?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes; I know all the clubs. You see, a lot of times he’s
just carrying on a lot of foolishness anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. He did what?
Mr. BRANCH. I said--a lot of times he just talked about foolishness,
anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Like what?
Mr. BRANCH. Just about different acts and different musicians he had
out to the place--“Slick,” and different ones he’d got out of jail and
all that and how much I’d done for them, and you know how that is.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew he was a Jew?
Mr. BRANCH. Who, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?
Mr. BRANCH. I don’t know--you see--he was a good fellow, but the thing
was, he was a parlor-type fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. A what?
Mr. BRANCH. Temperamental--real temperamental, but he was a good
fellow. The only thing, though, he bragged because he was a Jew.
Mr. HUBERT. He bragged because he was a Jew?
Mr. BRANCH. A lot of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an example of that, please, or several
examples?
Mr. BRANCH. You see, a long time ago he had a place down here in the
bottom called Cavalcade of Blues and he went busted and he said he
was going to leave, and he was going to come back and still have the
Cavalcade of Blues, and they busted him, and he got broke, and he said,
“I’m coming back,” and he said, “I’m going to be the only Jew that ever
come back and repeat it again”; and he did--he came back.
Mr. HUBERT. And he boasted about it later--you heard him do so?
Mr. BRANCH. He done that--he told me two or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us some other examples of episodes or things
he said which would indicate that he was proud of being of the Jewish
faith?
Mr. BRANCH. I don’t believe I can.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you the thought that the Jews were
getting a bad deal in society?
Mr. BRANCH. No; he would be happy nearly every time you see him.
Mr. HUBERT. He was what?
Mr. BRANCH. He’d be happy nearly every time you’d see him.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean then when you said he was temperamental?
Mr. BRANCH. Well, the least little thing--if you say something to him
and the price would be too high and he would get mad and said something
like, “You know that’s too much,” but he was just like that--he was a
good man.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is the Pago Club?
Mr. BRANCH. Now, it’s over on--over here on McKinney. Which one do you
mean--the one that used to be on Lemmon? They’ve done moved it now;
it’s over on McKinney.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it on November 23?
Mr. BRANCH. That was on Lemmon.
Mr. HUBERT. On Lemmon Street?
Mr. BRANCH. On Lemmon Avenue. Mr. Norton’s.
Mr. HUBERT. There weren’t two of them, were there?
Mr. BRANCH. Only one.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s moved to another address now?
Mr. BRANCH. It’s down there on McKinney now.
Mr. HUBERT. How far is your place, that is, the Empire Room at 1710
Hall Street, to the Pago Club, where it used to be?
Mr. BRANCH. You come down Lemmon all the way to Washington and turn
right on Washington at Ross and come right on to the Empire Room and
I’d say it’s about 15 blocks.
Mr. HUBERT. How far would the Hall Diner or the Empire Room be to the
Carousel?
Mr. BRANCH. Well, that’s down on Commerce Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I mean how many blocks?
Mr. BRANCH. I’ve never been to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it’s near the Adolphus Hotel, and let’s put it this
way--how far would it be from your place to the Adolphus?
Mr. BRANCH. That should be about between 12 and 14 blocks, according to
which way you go--which way you come down.
Mr. HUBERT. About a 5-minute drive in an automobile?
Mr. BRANCH. About 7 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any indication from what Ruby said as to where
he had been before he came to see you on the 23d?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he dressed?
Mr. BRANCH. He had on a gray pair of trousers and a blue coat.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a hat on?
Mr. BRANCH. He wore a hat.
Mr. HUBERT. What color?
Mr. BRANCH. It was black.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have an overcoat?
Mr. BRANCH. It wasn’t cold--it wasn’t even cold.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated to you that he was going directly to the
Carousel?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw him drive off, did he drive in the direction
of the Carousel?
Mr. BRANCH. He went up Hall Street. He had to go to the corner and turn
back right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be the way you go to the Carousel?
Mr. BRANCH. The way he was headed, he had to go one block and turn
right and come down Ross. He didn’t seem like he was angry or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. The band would have a break, wouldn’t it, have several
breaks?
Mr. BRANCH. Our bands don’t have but one break. In a white club you
have four breaks. You see, you play 45 and off 15 in a white club, and
in a colored club, you play 2½ hours and take 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, if it started at 9, you would go to 11:30, and then
start up again at 12?
Mr. BRANCH. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You are definite that when Ruby came the band had started
and had played about three or four pieces?
Mr. BRANCH. About three or four numbers.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible that he came to see you at the
beginning of the second half?
Mr. BRANCH. No, no; it was just after we kicked off--it wasn’t much
after.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m thinking about whether it was possible it was the
kickoff of the second half after the recess?
Mr. BRANCH. No; it was the kickoff.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the kickoff of the evening?
Mr. BRANCH. It was the kickoff of the evening, because we didn’t have
over four or five people in the house.
Mr. HUBERT. And later there were more?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes; they came in--you see--it was Saturday night, and they
started coming in all the way to 11.
Mr. HUBERT. There’s no possibility that he was there as late as 11 or
12 o’clock at night?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him after that night?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In regard to your statement, Exhibit No. 1, there is some
material on the top of the first page that does not deal with you, and
then there is the material that does deal with you, and I asked you to
read the part marked by a mark placed by me on the first page called
“X-1,” and on the second page, it’s squared off with “X-2.” That’s the
part we’re talking about that you have testified about previously.
What happened to the pianoplayer that you engaged for Monday night?
Mr. BRANCH. You know--they closed up.
Mr. HUBERT. Right away?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes--after he got in that trouble, they closed the place up.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the pianoplayer never was sent?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get word from somebody not to send him?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; but it was in the paper. You see there was all the
news in the paper where he done got in trouble.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but did they say that the club would be closed?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir--you see--I’m living out that way, and I got by
there every day and it was closed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Miss Eva and ask her if she wanted him?
Mr. BRANCH. I never talked to her but one time. You see, she called me
and asked me about it, but you see, I didn’t do business with her.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. BRANCH. Well that was the same day he came by--I talked to her
about the pianoplayer.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean--before he came?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You talked to her before he came that night?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that was the day.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the telephone?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on Saturday during the day?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She wanted a pianoplayer from you?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell her?
Mr. BRANCH. I told her I’d talk to Mr. Ruby about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him to come by?
Mr. BRANCH. He always come by when he wants something.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you would not talk to her?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I don’t do business with her.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. BRANCH. Because she’s too hard to get along with.
Mr. HUBERT. You have had experience along that line?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s why all the musicians was quitting--on account
of her. They worked for him, but they don’t want to work for her, but
he put her over there and so they just stayed along.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody with Ruby on the night you saw him?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; he was by himself.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that he had shot Oswald?
Mr. BRANCH. When I was looking at television.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you recognize him?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; not at first, because he was just like that--I was
a little surprised.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Andy Armstrong who worked over there at the
Carousel?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I don’t know nobody over at the Carousel at all. I
knew Joe Johnson and all the band that worked up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Mr. Ralph Paul?
Mr. BRANCH. I’m trying to think of who that is--I didn’t know him. I
know Miss Grant and I knowed nothing but the band.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. George Senator, a roommate of Ruby’s?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir; I didn’t know him at all. I have never seen him. I
have seen some men with him sometimes but I didn’t know who it was. You
see, he would get out of there--he’d get out when he’d drive up there,
and a lot of times I’d see him pass and call him and he wouldn’t stop,
and I wouldn’t stop him.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, just to close this--is there anything more you
want to say?
Mr. BRANCH. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us other than what’s
been recorded in this room, is that correct?
Mr. BRANCH. Yes; that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Mr. Branch. I appreciate your coming
by.
Mr. BRANCH. Thank you, I appreciate it too.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM GLENN DUNCAN, JR.
The testimony of William Glenn Duncan, Jr. was taken at 3:45 p.m., on
June 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert,
Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of William Glenn Duncan, Jr.
Mr. Duncan, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the
joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted
by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order
and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon
the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Duncan, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you may know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and
about Jack Ruby and his operations and movements and associates and so
forth.
I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter written to you by
Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission asking you to be present, is that correct?
Mr. DUNCAN. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that letter?
Mr. DUNCAN. No; I got it the 23d, but I don’t remember the date of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the rules of the Commission provide that every
witness is entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of
his deposition, commencing from the date of the request, so that the
rule has probably been complied with here, but at any rate, the rule
also provides that the witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes.
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, I’m sure they were complied with, and if not, I will
waive that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand up and take the oath, please, sir.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. DUNCAN. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Duncan, I have previously shown you a document which
I have marked for identification by placing in the right-hand margin
the following: “Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the
Deposition of Glenn Duncan” and under which I have signed my name.
The exhibit consists of one page. It purports to be a report of an
interview of you by FBI Agents Neeley and Rice on November 29, 1963.
I ask you if you have read Exhibit No. 1 and whether it is correct or
whether there is anything wrong or something which should be modified
or expanded?
Mr. DUNCAN. Now, the exhibit is basically correct. The only possible
discrepancy would be the matter of the two telephone calls from Jack
Ruby, which is still a matter of some confusion in my mind, as to the
exact number. The time on this exhibit shows probably between 1 a.m.
and 2 a.m. I think it would actually be between midnight and 1 a.m.
Ruby’s visit came over the 2 o’clock hour and the telephone calls
preceded that. Aside from that the exhibit is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you place the visit by Ruby between the hours of 1 and
2, is that correct?
Mr. DUNCAN. No; the visit was actually about 30 minutes long and hinged
somewhere over the 2 o’clock hour.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say it was somewhere between a quarter of 2 and
a quarter past 2, or 5 minutes of 2 and 25 minutes after 2?
Mr. DUNCAN. I would say--somewhere between that.
Mr. HUBERT. How much before the beginning of the actual personal
interview did the phone calls occur?
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, they would be another half hour to 45 minutes. I
would say about that--45 minutes would probably be the most solid--from
the last telephone call to his arrival.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your thought is that the phone calls could not have
been earlier than 1 o’clock?
Mr. DUNCAN. It was--could not have been later than 1 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Could not have been later than 1 o’clock.
Mr. DUNCAN. Correct--I would like to allow myself a----
Mr. HUBERT. It’s incorrect to say that the calls were between 1 and 2
a.m., when actually the latest time in your mind that the calls could
have been, would have been 45 minutes before he came or about 1 o’clock.
Mr. DUNCAN. About 1 o’clock; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why it is that you have that recollection
now and are changing another recollection, or is it your opinion that
the FBI agents misunderstood you? In other words, we have here a
discrepancy in time, and I would like some way to have it explained to
us.
Mr. DUNCAN. Well, the only time I can pin down definitely is that his
visit hinged over the 2 o’clock hour, because at 2 o’clock I did a 2
o’clock newscast and he was there during that newscast, and I would
judge his visit to be about a half hour, and I was guessing he arrived
10, 15, perhaps 20 minutes before that, but at least hinging over that.
I would put the telephone calls between 12 and 1 because of the time
preceding that, and as to the discrepancy with the report, I would have
no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it may well be and I suggest to you the possibility
that it is, that now you have this very definite hinge point, as it
were, that Ruby was there when you made a 2 a.m. broadcast and perhaps
you did not remember that on the 29th when you told the agents that?
Mr. DUNCAN. This could very well be.
Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, the document is all right, that is to say,
Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have also handed to you and I think you have read
it, a document purporting to be the transcription of your testimony at
the Ruby trial, consisting of a number of pages, beginning apparently
at page 52 and ending on page 67. I have marked this group of papers
for identification as follows: On the first page I have put in the
right-hand margin--“Dallas, Texas, June 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 2,
Deposition of Glenn Duncan” and I have signed my name below that and
on each of the succeeding pages I have put my initials in the lower
right-hand corner, and I ask you if you have read this transcription of
your testimony, and if you have any comment to make upon it?
Mr. DUNCAN. I have read it and it is correct in total. I have marked on
one page----
Mr. HUBERT. Page 64?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes--page 64--and this concerns the part of the testimony
where I was being cross-examined by Mr. Belli and he asks me,
paraphrasing, if after Ruby had seen Oswald, did Ruby seem pleased,
satisfied--that he had seen this character, et cetera, et cetera, et
cetera--I have an addition to make.
I can remember now one particular incidence and this came to mind
after the trial. We talked for a few minutes on Oswald himself, his
appearance and so forth, and I remember, I believe Ruby brought it up,
that he was--to the effect--actually a fairly nice looking kid. We
talked about how he would normally--could pass off as a college student
somewhere, and the connection was brought up to a vague resemblance
between Oswald and Paul Newman, the movie star. This is about the only
addition that I could make to that.
Mr. HUBERT. He was describing Oswald as he said he had seen him that
night, wasn’t he?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. At a press conference?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon how he happened to be there?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes, he did. He said he had come to the front door of our
studio with the sandwiches and cola and so forth that I have mentioned
elsewhere in that testimony, and had tried to get in--the door was
locked, and because of the long distance between the flight of stairs
and the studio, no one heard him, and he said he went over the the city
hall, the police department, Dallas City Hall, to try to find one of
our newsmen to either give the sandwiches to him or let him in. While
he was there, he said there was all of a sudden a lot of commotion,
people running around, and he said he was caught up in the rush and
before he knew it he was in an assembly room, being pushed by everybody
and standing there with his big bag of sandwiches and everything, and
looking up at Oswald, and he said this was when Oswald was brought out
to be seen by the press after he had been charged that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he was trying to convey to you
that he got into that room more or less by accident by being brushed
along and not by design?
Mr. DUNCAN. Yes; exactly. This was the whole point or one of the points
that he was making--the fact that he hadn’t even known it was going to
happen, and suddenly he was pushed along. He didn’t know what the rush
was all about until he was in there surrounded by everybody.
Mr. HUBERT. So he was conveying to you that he got into the assembly
room just by a sort of an accidental method and he did not get there
because he sought to get there?
Mr. DUNCAN. Right. His exact words, I don’t remember, but the inference
was very definitely accidental and not attempting to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know Jack Ruby prior to this, did you?
Mr. DUNCAN. No, I did not--it was the first time actually I had ever
even heard of him--was when I was introduced to him on the telephone
that night.
Mr. HUBERT. And how were you introduced to him?
Mr. DUNCAN. By the announcer on duty at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. DUNCAN. Danny McCurdy, and Jack called the control room, which
was the only public number or the only place in the station at that
time with the telephone answer to a public number, and our newsroom
telephones are both unlisted private lines, and so at that time he,
according to what Danny told me, said he had some things to bring up
and I was introduced to him on the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. He had some sandwiches?
Mr. DUNCAN. Some sandwiches and colas, and I was introduced to him
on the telephone and there was a mixup. Danny gave him the newsroom
number, the telephone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what’s called the hot line?
Mr. DUNCAN. That’s what’s called the hot line--correct. He gave him the
hot-line number and he was going to call and then there was a mixup
and he had written it down and had forgotten it or Danny gave him the
wrong number or something, and he called Danny again to get it again,
and then he either called the newsroom and introduced himself to me
with Danny then picking up his telephone in the control room or Danny
introduced me to him on one of the other lines during the exchange of
telephone numbers, and I do not remember which it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that he suggested to you that he might
be able to get an interview for you with Henry Wade?