the press people on the third floor began?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; and I don’t think it was any unanimous thing at
all. I think it was just strictly moving around.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way. I understand there was quite a crowd
of people there, say an hour before the transfer?
Mr. BENTON. That’s true.
Mr. HUBERT. And then 10 minutes or so before you left, the crowd had
cleared out considerably?
Mr. BENTON. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any announcement or any statement by anyone
that Oswald would be moved by use of the basement ramps?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t. I think this may have been something that
we assumed since we knew that there was a basement entrance to the jail
which connected to an elevator. I think we assumed he would be moved by
some sort of vehicle. There were some of us who were not convinced the
armored car was going to be used, and, as I later found out, there was
no intention of using the armored car, which later I was told.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you left, which you stated was roughly
10 minutes before the shooting occurred, did you see any movement in
Captain Fritz’ office to indicate that movement was imminent?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Oswald, particularly, in Captain Fritz’ office
at that time?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I did not see Oswald at all on the morning of the
24th. The only place I saw him was on a television screen.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you able to observe whether the detectives from the
bureaus were leaving their offices to go down to the basement area?
Mr. BENTON. I don’t recall specifically noticing that. I do recall on
one of my trips that there was a large number of people congregated at
the basement entrance and----
Mr. HUBERT. Which basement entrance?
Mr. BENTON. This is the entrance in which Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you mean----
Mr. BENTON. The ramp.
Mr. HUBERT (continuing). The corridor that goes through the little jail
office from the elevator?
Mr. BENTON. It doesn’t go through the jail office, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, there is a corridor----
Mr. BENTON. There’s a corridor that leads from, I believe, the spot
where you pay traffic tickets that leads out----
Mr. HUBERT. Swinging doors and then the corridor and then it leads into
the basement ramp?
Mr. BENTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Which goes both ways, to Main and to Commerce. There is
some indication that at 10 o’clock on Sunday morning, that there was
an expectation as to a time when Oswald would be moved. Do you recall
anything about that, sir?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t. I may have heard it at the time but I
remember no official announcement whatsoever that: we’re going to move
him at such and such an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from your statement that your interview with Curry
must have ended prior to 10 o’clock?
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; I’m sure that it did.
Mr. HUBERT. That would mean there was an hour and 20 minutes between
the end of the interview and the actual shooting of Oswald. During that
interval, I take it, also, you were moving around as you described?
Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Until ultimately, you came down to monitor the various
pictures that were being picked up by your cameras?
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. During that period from 10 until the time you last left
before the shooting, did you see anything or hear anything to indicate
a time of movement or a schedule of movement?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At any time was the route to be used, within the jail,
first, and then after leaving the jail, or either of those two routes,
discussed or commented upon by any public official that you know?
Mr. BENTON. I think the route from the jail to the courthouse was
discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, outside the jail?
Mr. BENTON. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. On the streets?
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir. My memory is hazy. I can only say I think,
because I am not sure. I think that in the interview I had with Chief
Curry that that route was discussed and that--please understand this
is a vague recollection. You plan on one thing and then it gets torn
up and you lose a few details. But as I recall, I think I was told, in
the discussion of the armored car, that he would be taken down Commerce
Street to the jail, which, as I recall, Commerce Street goes past one
side of the building, and it’s only necessary to make a right turn onto
Houston Street to get to the jail entrance. I believe that’s correct.
I remember looking at a picture on the wall in that anteroom to which
Chief Curry’s office adjoins. It’s a picture taken from a high angle
beyond the triple overpass which shows Main Street, Elm Street,
Commerce Street--you can see the jail building, and, if someone will
point it out to you, you can also see the top of the jail building,
and it seems to me there was some discussion of that route. There
was some discussion of a route between Chief Curry and myself, and
whether we discussed merely landmarks, and this was the way the
President’s motorcade went, or whether we discussed the actual route of
transportation for a prisoner, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether the time was discussed?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t recall the time being discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get this straight. Is it that no time was discussed
positively, or you don’t remember whether it was or not?
Mr. BENTON. I don’t think it was because I had some certain
journalistic qualms of my own about discussing the specific time and I
don’t think I asked a question like that because I didn’t feel it was
proper.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether anyone else asked the question?
Mr. BENTON. I’m sure they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear them?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, there were no notes taken by you
during your interview of Chief Curry, is that correct?
Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have told me, in the discussion we had
immediately prior to the beginning of this deposition, that you had
some 10 pages of notes of the events of November 22 through the 24th
but that it consisted mostly of names. Is that correct?
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; and I think the majority of my notes were taken
prior to the 24th, because starting with----
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the 24th?
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir; prior to the 24th. Because starting on Saturday
morning, the 23d--well, let me digress a bit. Up until midnight Friday
night I was working with a film camera crew. Film has to be processed,
edited, and prepared for broadcast. Notes are very necessary if you
want to determine which sections of the film to try to grab and use,
if it has to be done in a hurry. After that time, everything I was
doing was either being taped for fast reuse or it was going out live.
Consequently, from a purely technical standpoint, there was no need
for me to take notes. The story was in the hands of the producer and
the editors simultaneously by the time it occurred, and this, plus the
fact that I was in a rather large group of reporters, I had to hold a
microphone in one hand. It was physically impossible to take any notes.
Mr. HUBERT. So the majority of your notes were taken, really, on Friday
and Friday night?
Mr. BENTON. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And those would have to do, you say, not so much with
information to be reported but with notes for your own use in editing,
is that correct?
Mr. BENTON. That’s right. I took a great number of notes at the
hospital because I was reporting after the fact rather than live.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You say those notes are available?
Mr. BENTON. I think they are: yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would undertake, when you have an
opportunity to do so, to look them up and let me know about them. We’ll
then have them photostated or Xeroxed and return them to you.
Mr. BENTON. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. And I would ask you at the time you turn them over to us
to just jot on each page your name, and date, and just put: In re:
deposition.
Mr. BENTON. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. So as to tie into this deposition without having to call
you back again, you see.
Mr. BENTON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else that you can think of that you
would like to make a part of this deposition?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything that was discussed between us prior
to the beginning of this deposition that has not been covered and made
a part of this deposition by the actual recordation by the recorder
here?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir; I don’t think so. I think you asked me one
time--either you or the FBI asked me--if I saw Jack Ruby again on
November 24. I did, after he had been arrested.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I did want to get that. Where did you see him next?
Mr. BENTON. I saw him in the corridor on the third floor of the police
station.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the shooting was that?
Mr. BENTON. I would guess an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. You just saw him in passing or did you have an interview
with him or----
Mr. BENTON. He was being brought from the jail to Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak to him?
Mr. BENTON. I asked him a question and----
Mr. HUBERT. What question?
Mr. BENTON (continuing). He did not answer. I asked him why he did it.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the only time?
Mr. BENTON. He was brought down from the jail to Captain Fritz’ office
and returned via the same route.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in Captain Fritz’ office, would you say?
Mr. BENTON. I would say at least an hour; maybe longer.
Mr. HUBERT. And you first saw him about 12:20?
Mr. BENTON. I would say between 12:15 and 12:30.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say he was in there 1 hour?
Mr. BENTON. At least an hour. It may have been longer.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he was brought back up again. Do you recall who
was with him at that time?
Mr. BENTON. He was in the custody of at least four or five officers. I
don’t know who they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know FBI Agent Hall?
Mr. BENTON. No, I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels?
Mr. BENTON. I know the name. I think I know the face. I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he was there when Ruby was in Fritz’
office?
Mr. BENTON. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Ruby was brought back upstairs, after having
been in Fritz’ office at least 1 hour, did you see him again that day?
Mr. BENTON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, when this deposition has been transcribed,
we would like to send you a copy so that you may read it and make
what stylistic semantic corrections you think should be made without
changing the meaning, and then there will be a place for you to sign
and then you can return it. I will ask the stenographer to send the
transcript to me here. I will make some of these changes myself and
send it on to you.
Mr. BENTON. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time I will probably enclose a self-addressed and
stamped envelope to the Commission in Washington so that you may send
it on. Now, where will you be? I understand you are going to----
Mr. BENTON. San Francisco; tomorrow.
Mr. HUBERT. And you will be there until----
Mr. BENTON. I think until the 18th or 19th.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell me, Miss, when this will be in my hands?
The REPORTER. We normally have 2 weeks delivery. When would you need it?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, could you have it in my hands by Tuesday, the 14th?
The REPORTER. Yes, I’m sure I can.
Mr. HUBERT. Where will you be staying?
Mr. BENTON. I’ll be staying at the Hilton Hotel in San Francisco.
Mr. HUBERT. And you won’t leave there until the 18th?
Mr. BENTON. That is the present plan.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we’ll try to send it out to you airmail special
delivery on the 14th so it ought to get there on the 15th or 16th and
perhaps you’ll have a chance to look it over. In any case, send it on.
I guess you will leave a forwarding address. Could you be reached at
this New Orleans address we have?
Mr. BENTON. Well, my wife would know where I am. The St. Charles Avenue
address.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and the CBS local would know?
Mr. BENTON. Well, she would probably come closer to knowing than they
would at CBS because quite often all of us are out of town.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF FRANK BELLOCCHIO
The testimony of Frank Bellocchio was taken at 11:50 a.m., on June 27,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Frank Bellocchio.
Mr. Bellocchio, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of
Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission
in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I
have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death
of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Bellocchio, the
nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about
the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about
the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his movements and his
operations and associates and so forth. I think you have appeared
here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission asking you
to come here; is that correct?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Approximately 6 days ago, I believe, 5 or 6 days ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and take the oath, please, and raise your
right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Your name is Frank Bellocchio; is that correct?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 9832 San Lea Drive, Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Jeweler--self-employed.
Mr. HUBERT. Located where?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 8310 Varsity Plaza is the retail store and at 1517
Commerce Street.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s a retail store?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No, this is a jewelry workshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Seven or eight years.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you get to know him and how did your
acquaintance or friendship continue?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe it was about 8 years ago that my wife and I
strolled into his nightclub in Oaklawn.
Mr. HUBERT. The Vegas Club?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. The Vegas.
Mr. HUBERT. You got to know him there?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. And I got to know Jack Ruby. He introduced himself to
me, and also some people knew me as a jewelry designer and he seemed to
be impressed by this. He came over and he introduced himself to me and
made his acquaintance in that manner.
Mr. HUBERT. How did your acquaintance or friendship, whichever it was,
develop from that point?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Then I believe I went in--I believe my brother came
down here from New York that summer.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s about 8 years ago?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. About 8 years ago--maybe 7 and maybe 9. My brother came
down from New York City and my wife and I, I believe my brother and I
believe his wife, went to the Vegas Club. Again, Jack Ruby came over
to the table. My brother is on the police department in New York City
and of course Jack Ruby was always impressed, you know, with police
officers and so forth, and he got to talking to me and my brother all
about some sort of business deal he had down here. I think it was
this frozen pizzas. Jack Ruby spoke about going into the frozen pizza
business, and the way he put it, I think he had plans to corner the
frozen pizza business in the South. This was on my second meeting with
Jack Ruby, and I believe the only time I actually sat at a table and
spoke with him. After that from time to time I would see Jack Ruby
downtown maybe walking in the opposite way or in a restaurant and he
would always give me a big “Hello.”
Mr. HUBERT. There was no social relationship between you then such as
visiting in one another’s houses and going out together or anything
like that?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business relationships with him?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come to your shop sometime?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t--I’m sure Jack Ruby was never in our store at
Preston Center, and he may have visited my workshop downtown once. I
vaguely remember him talking to me about designing some sort of an
ornament for the winners at his dance club. He used to have competition
between dancers and give prizes to the winners.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you saw him on the 23d of November 1963?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that time that you had seen
him?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I would say perhaps 6 months or 8 months or 10 months
before that.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him on Saturday, November 23, which was
the Saturday after the shooting and death of the President?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. At Sol’s Turf Bar or Delicatessen.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. 1517 Commerce Street, right across from the Dallas
Power and Light Co. It may be 1515 Commerce Street.
Mr. HUBERT. I think your number is 1515?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; I’m located right upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were you with?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Tom Apple.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He’s a personal friend of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. He’s an American Airlines pilot and also an engraver in
the jewelry business.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you and Apple go down?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe we went down around 3 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. For what purpose--to get lunch or a drink or what?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe--lunch, a drink, and it was a day in which
everybody was upset and talking and I didn’t feel much like working.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time at 3?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Originally, Tom and I thought or I thought that we had
seen Jack Ruby about 1 o’clock or 1:30 or 2.
Mr. HUBERT. And you so stated, I think, to the FBI in your statement
which has not yet been identified?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But now you wish to correct that and say it was later?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. We have established the time as being later than that,
to the extent that I spoke to another friend of ours that was down
there and he tells us it was closer to, I believe, 4 or 4:30 and he
knows this is true because he had an appointment, I believe, at 2
o’clock and he was still there at 2 o’clock, and he’s told us he stayed
about 2 hours after that; therefore, he’s very sure that it was not at
2 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you fix the time at 4 o’clock because some
friend of yours has told you that he saw you there?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; we spoke with him.
Mr. HUBERT. You spoke with him and he knows it was 4 because he
couldn’t himself have gotten there until 4 o’clock.
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that friend’s name?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I can’t think of his name, but he’s in the door
business. It may come to me in a few seconds--I just can’t think of his
name right now.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you have occasion to talk to him about this time
question?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Well, naturally, afterward we all spoke about having
seen Jack Ruby and we spoke about the FBI contacting us, and then we
just spoke about it, tried to hash it out exactly what happened, when
it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. But you remembered that you had told the FBI It was
sometime between 1 and 2 o’clock?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then this man reminded you it couldn’t have been then
because he had seen you earlier?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. In spite of the fact that he saw you there at 4 o’clock,
would that have eliminated the possibility that you were there at 2,
necessarily?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I could have been there myself at 2 o’clock. As I said,
it was a day in which everybody was very upset.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this friend indicate to you that he saw Ruby there?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He saw Ruby there at 4?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long was Ruby there altogether?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Approximately 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was not there twice, that is to say, to your
knowledge while you were there, he was there once?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. To my knowledge he was only there once.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was for 15 minutes?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Fifteen or twenty minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And therefore, if the man who is in the door business whose
name you don’t remember at the moment, if he says he saw you talking to
Ruby, that it had to be 4 o’clock because he couldn’t have been there
before 4 o’clock, then you are willing to amend your statement to show
that it was 4 rather than 2?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will introduce that statement. I have handed to you
previously so that you might read it, a document which purports to be
an interview of you by FBI Agent James S. Weir on December 5, 1963,
which for the purpose of identification I have marked as follows:
“Dallas, Texas, June 27, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of Frank
Bellocchio,” and have signed my name Leon D. Hubert, Jr., which I
have marked in the right-hand margin of the first page, the document
consisting of two pages, and on the second page I have placed my
initials on the lower right-hand corner.
Now, you have read this document, I think, and I ask if, except for
the element of time, this document is correct, and does it correctly
reflect the interview you had with the FBI agent?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes; it does.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the third paragraph it does state that the time was
between 1 and 2 o’clock and you have in the last few minutes explained
why you believe it was not that time, but rather 4 o’clock, right?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you say you talked with Jack?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Ten, fifteen, or twenty minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was all of that conversation in the presence of Mr. Apple?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any of it in the presence of Mr. Apple?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Yes, some of it; some of it was in the presence of Mr.
Apple.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe then how it was that Mr. Apple was
present during some of the conversation but not during other parts of
it? In other words, how did you become separated?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Tom Apple and myself--how did we become separated?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes--from Ruby? In other words, Ruby came in after you were
in there, is that correct?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I don’t know whether Ruby was in there when I came in
or whether he came in afterwards. I didn’t see him enter or leave. He
was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come up to you and talk or did you go to him?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. I believe I walked towards the rear of Sol’s Turf Bar
and Ruby said “Hello” to me.
Mr. HUBERT. And then did you engage him in a conversation?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. There was considerable confusion. I don’t remember
whether I engaged him or he engaged me.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Apple present when you first saw him?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Apple was sitting at the bar. When I first saw
Ruby--Apple was not with me, and to my knowledge Apple had never met
and did not know Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. So you spoke to Ruby alone, then, about how many minutes?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Oh, perhaps, 5, 8 or 10 minutes. There were other
people around though.
Mr. HUBERT. How did Apple get into the conversation?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Well, Tom and I, before----
Mr. HUBERT. “Tom” is Mr. Apple, right?
Mr. BELLOCCHIO. Mr. Apple, right. Mr. Apple and I had been sitting at
the bar and we were both naturally very upset about the President’s
assassination. I was on this day very emotional myself, and in a
sense, I was holding Dallas responsible for the assassination of the
President. Tom disagreed with me. We were discussing this at the bar.
Then, I walked towards the rear of Sol’s Turf Bar and somehow I got
involved in a conversation with Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you tell us about that conversation between
you and Ruby first. What was the nature of it and what subjects were
discussed?