Mr. GRIFFIN. When you worked for the punchboard company wher_Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15)

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INVESTIGATION OF

THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS

Before the President’s Commission

on the Assassination

of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a

Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating

to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the

subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and

S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon

the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine

witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ XV

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.

Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION

ON THE

ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL

SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER

REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS

REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD

MR. ALLEN W. DULLES

MR. JOHN J. McCLOY

J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_

_Assistant Counsel_

FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS

JOSEPH A. BALL

DAVID W. BELIN

WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.

MELVIN ARON EISENBERG

BURT W. GRIFFIN

LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.

ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.

WESLEY J. LIEBELER

NORMAN REDLICH

W. DAVID SLAWSON

ARLEN SPECTER

SAMUEL A. STERN

HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the

Department of Justice.

_Staff Members_

PHILLIP BARSON

EDWARD A. CONROY

JOHN HART ELY

ALFRED GOLDBERG

MURRAY J. LAULICHT

ARTHUR MARMOR

RICHARD M. MOSK

JOHN J. O’BRIEN

STUART POLLAK

ALFREDDA SCOBEY

CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be

found in the Commission’s _Report_.

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume

XV; Hyman Rubenstein, a brother of Jack L. Ruby; Glen D. King,

administrative assistant to the chief of the Dallas police; C. Ray

Hall, an FBI agent who interviewed Ruby; Charles Batchelor, assistant

chief of the Dallas police; Jesse E. Curry, chief of the Dallas police;

M. W. Stevenson, deputy chief of the Dallas police; Elgin English

Crull, city manager of Dallas; J. W. Fritz, captain in charge of the

Dallas Homicide Bureau; Roland A. Cox, a Dallas policeman; Harold J.

Fleming, vice president of the Armored Motor Car Service of Dallas,

and Don Edward Goin, Marvin E. Hall and Edward C. Dietrich, employees

of the Armored Motor Car Service; Capt. Cecil E. Talbert of the Dallas

Police Department, who was in charge of the patrol division on November

26, 1963; Marjorie R. Richey, James Thomas Aycox, Thomas Stewart

Palmer, Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr., Edward J. Pullman, Herbert B.

Kravitz, Joseph Rossi, Norman Earl Wright, Lawrence V. Meyers, William

D. Crowe, Jr., Nancy Monnell Powell, Dave L. Miller and Russell Lee

Moore (Knight), former employees, business associates, friends, or

acquaintances of Ruby; Eileen Kaminsky and Eva L. Grant, sisters of

Ruby; George William Fehrenbach, a purported acquaintance of Ruby;

Abraham Kleinman, Ruby’s accountant; Wanda Yvonne Helmick, an employee

of a business associate of Ruby; Kenneth Lawry Dowe, who talked to

Ruby over the telephone on November 23, 1963; T. M. Hansen, Jr., a

Dallas police officer; Nelson Benton, a Dallas news reporter who spoke

with Chief Curry on the morning of November 26; Frank Bellocchio, an

acquaintance of Ruby, who spoke with him on November 23, 1963; Alfred

Douglas Hodge, an acquaintance of Ruby; David L. Johnston, the justice

of the peace who arraigned Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy

and Officer Tippit, and who also gave testimony concerning Ruby’s

whereabouts on November 22, 1963; Stanley M. Kaufman, Ruby’s attorney,

who spoke to him on November 23; William S. Biggio and Clyde Franklin

Goodson, Dallas police officers; Roger C. Warner, a Secret Service

agent who participated in the investigation of the killing of Lee

Harvey Oswald; Seth Kantor, Danny Patrick McCurdy, Victor F. Robertson,

Jr., Frederic Rheinstein, Icarus M. Pappas, John G. McCullough, Wilma

May Tice, John Henry Branch, William Glenn Duncan, Jr., Garnett Claud

Hallmark, John Wilkins Newnam, Robert L. Norton, Roy A. Pryor, Arthur

William Watherwax, Billy A. Rea, Richard L. Saunders, Thayer Waldo,

Ronald Lee Jenkins, Speedy Johnson, and Roy E. Standifer, all of whom

gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22 and/or

November 23, 1963; William Kline and Oran Pugh, U.S. Customs officials

who gave testimony regarding their knowledge of Oswald’s trip to

Mexico; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the FBI; and

Bruce Ray Carlin, Mrs. Bruce Carlin, and Ralph Paul, acquaintances

of Jack Ruby; Harry Tasker, taxicab driver in Dallas; Paul Morgan

Stombaugh, hair and fiber expert, FBI; Alwyn Cole, questioned document

examiner, Treasury Department; B. M. Patterson and L. J. Lewis,

witnesses in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Arthur Mandella,

fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department; John F. Gallagher,

FBI agent; and Revilo Pendleton Oliver, member of the council of the

John Birch Society.

Contents

Page

Preface v

Testimony of--

Hyman Rubenstein 1

William S. Biggio 48

Glen D. King 51

C. Ray Hall 62

Seth Kantor 71

William D. Crowe, Jr. 96

Charles Batchelor 114

Jesse E. Curry 124, 641

M. W. Stevenson 133

Elgin English Crull 138

J. W. Fritz 145

Roland A. Cox 153

Harold J. Fleming 159

Don Edward Goin 168

Marvin E. Hall 174

Cecil E. Talbert 182

Marjorie R. Richey 192

James Thomas Aycox 203

Thomas Stewart Palmer 206

Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr 218

Edward J. Pullman 222

Herbert B. Kravitz 231

Joseph Rossi 235

Norman Earl Wright 244

Russell Lee Moore (Knight) 251

Edward C. Dietrich 269

Eileen Kaminsky 275

George William Fehrenbach 289

Eva L. Grant 321

Victor F. Robertson, Jr. 347

Frederic Rheinstein 354

Icarus M. Pappas 360

John G. McCullough 373

Abraham Kleinman 383

Wilma May Tice 388

Wanda Yvonne Helmick 396

Nancy Monnell Powell 404

Kenneth Lawry Dowe 430

T. M. Hansen, Jr. 438

Dave L. Miller 450

Nelson Benton 456

Frank Bellocchio 466

John Henry Branch 473

William Glenn Duncan, Jr. 482

Garnett Claud Hallmark 488

Alfred Douglas Hodge 494

David L. Johnston 503

Stanley M. Kaufman 513

Danny Patrick McCurdy 529

John Wilkins Newnam 534

Robert L. Norton 546

Roy A. Pryor 554

Arthur William Watherwax 564

Billy A. Rea 571

Richard L. Saunders 577

Thayer Waldo 585

Clyde Franklin Goodson 596

Ronald Lee Jenkins 600

Speedy Johnson 607

Roy E. Standifer 614

Roger C. Warner 619

Lawrence V. Meyers 620

William Kline 640

Oran Pugh 640

Bruce Ray Carlin 641

Mrs. Bruce Carlin 656

Ralph Paul 664

Harry Tasker 679

Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 686

Paul Morgan Stombaugh 702

L. J. Lewis 703

Alwyn Cole 703

Revilo Pendleton Oliver 709

B. M. Patterson 744

Arthur Mandella 745

John F, Gallagher 746

Index to Volumes I-XV 753

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

Page

Aycox Exhibit No. 1 206

Bellocchio Exhibit No. 1 469

Branch Exhibit No. 1 474

Carlin Exhibit No.:

1 655

2 655

3 655

4 655

Cole Exhibit No.:

1 704

2 704

3 704

4 704

5 704

6 704

7 705

8 706

9 706

Crowe Exhibit No.:

1 110

2 110

Crull Exhibit No. 1 140

Dowe Exhibit No.:

1 436

2 436

Duncan Exhibit No.:

1 483

2 484

Fehrenbach Exhibit No.:

1 295

2 311

3 312

4 317

5 317

6 314

7 318

Fleming Exhibit No. 1 160

Gallagher Exhibit No. 1 750

Goodson Exhibit No. 1 597

Hall (C. Kay) Exhibit No.:

1 66

2 66

3 68

4 67

Hall (Marvin E.) Exhibit No. 1 175

Hallmark Exhibit No. 1 489

Hansen Exhibit No.:

1 445

2 445

Helmick Exhibit No. 1 403

Hodge Exhibit No. 1 495

Jenkins Exhibit No. 1 601

Johnson Exhibit No. 1 614

Johnston Exhibit No.:

1 509

2 509

3 513

4 513

5 513

Kantor Exhibit No.:

1 75

2 83

3 92

4 92

5 93

6 94

7 94

8 94

Kaufman Exhibit No. 1 515

King Exhibit No.:

1 59

2 59

3 59

4 60

5 62

Kleinman Exhibit No. 1 387

Knight Exhibit No. 1 266

Kravitz Exhibit No. 1 234

McCullough Exhibit No.:

1 380

2 380

McCurdy Exhibit No. 1 529

Miller Exhibit No. 1 454

Newnam Exhibit No.:

1 537

2 538

3 538

4 535

Norton Exhibit No. 1 549

Oliver Exhibit No.:

1 713

2 713

3 717

4 722

5 723

6 732

7 737

8 738

9 741

10 741

11 743

12 743

Pappas Exhibit No.:

1 370

2 370

3 371

4 371

Patterson Exhibit:

A 744

B 745

Powell Exhibit No.:

1 420

2 429

3 430

Pryor Exhibit No. 1 555

Pullman Exhibit No. 1 231

Rea Exhibit No. 1 573

Richey Exhibit No. 1 196

Robertson Exhibit No.:

1 354

2 354

Rossi Exhibit No. 1 241

Rubenstein Exhibit No.:

1 35

2 35

3 44

4 45

5 47

Saunders Exhibit No. 1 577

Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.:

8 687

9 687

10 687

11 687

12 687

13 687

14 687

15 689

16 689

17 690

18 690

19 690

20 690

21 690

22 690

23 692

24 694

25 696

26 697

27 698

28 698

29 698

30 698

31 698

32 698

33 698

34 700

35 700

36 701

Standifer Exhibit No. 1 615

Stombaugh Exhibit No.:

1 702

2 702

3 702

4 702

5 702

6 702

Talbert Exhibit No.:

1 186

2 186

Tice Exhibit No. 1 395

Waldo Exhibit No. 1 586

Wright Exhibit No. 1 250

Hearings Before the President’s Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF HYMAN RUBENSTEIN

The testimony of Hyman Rubenstein was taken at 9:20 a.m., on June

5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt

Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff

of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission on the

Assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized under the rules of procedure of the Commission

to take your deposition here today, Mr. Rubenstein.

I might tell you a little bit about the Commission before we go into

the testimony.

The Commission was established under an Executive order of President

Johnson and under a joint resolution of Congress on November 29, 1963,

to investigate and evaluate the facts and report back to President

Johnson on the assassination of President Kennedy and the facts

surrounding the murder of Lee Oswald.

In asking you to come here today, we are particularly concerned with

the information you may be able to bring to bear upon the murder of Lee

Oswald.

Now, under the authorization setting up this Commission by the

President and by Congress, the Commission is authorized to promulgate

certain rules of procedure, and pursuant to those rules of procedure,

the Commission has authority to issue subpenas and to require witnesses

to attend here.

In pursuance of those rules we have sent you a letter. I want to ask

you now if you did receive the letter. You are pointing to your inside

coat pocket.

Can you tell us when you received the letter from the Commission?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I, that I, can’t tell you because I was gone out of

town all last week, and I came in Monday night, and I didn’t open my

mail until Tuesday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did see the letter on Tuesday.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. It was too late for me to get here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is that you are privileged to have 3

days’ notice before you come here and I wanted to make sure we had

given you the 3-day notice.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It probably was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled under the rules of the

Commission to have an attorney with you if you desire, and I see you

don’t have one here so I take it it is not your desire to have one.

Incidentally, in the letter that we sent you did you get a copy of some

rules of procedure?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I wasn’t worried about it because I felt I have nothing

to hide to tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you have any questions that you want to

ask about the general nature of what the proceeding will be before I

administer the oath?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I think it is going to be very interesting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand if you will. Do

you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth,

the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, give the court reporter your name.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hyman Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rubenstein.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1044 Loyola Avenue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Chicago, 26.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. December 28, 1901.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you born?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Warsaw, Poland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you come to this country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I was 2½ years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been in 1903?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t--all right, put it down, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only recollection, I take it, you have----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From my folks when they told us when they came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you work for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I work for Davidson and Uphoff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 448 Mark Avenue, Clarendon Hills, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you sell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Florist supplies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those consist of?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Bird cages, stands, different things that the florists

sell in their shops and greenhouses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you obliged to travel in the course of your employment?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Almost constantly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general idea of the area that you travel

in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. Now, I cover Michigan. I have covered Wisconsin,

Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, Kentucky, and Tennessee. With different

firms but related to the same field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been covering Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 11, 12 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said now you cover Michigan. I take it at the present

time----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is a new firm I am with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the present time you don’t cover any State other than

Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; except this. In 1963 the firm I was with in New

York, the Lewis Ribbon Co., merged with the International Artware

Co. of Cleveland, so I had to go in business for myself. So, I still

cover the same territory for myself as I did with Lewis Ribbon Co. in

1963. So I had a lot of money outstanding so I am trying to pick that

up little by little as I am traveling through Illinois and eventually

will travel through Wisconsin to pick up money I have coming from

merchandise I have sold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave the Lewis Ribbon Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1963; January 1st.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you went into business for yourself?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What business did you go into then?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Same business, ribbons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these sold to floral customers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. The same customers I had before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin to work for the Davidson-Uphoff Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Last month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So between approximately last January and last

month or January 1963 and last month, you were employed for yourself,

is that correct?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Practically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Practically?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I mean because I haven’t done much work since the

incidents down in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you were employed for yourself did you travel

in any States other than Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; Illinois and Wisconsin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time was spent in each of those States?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. For one trip complete? In other words, if I had to make

a State complete time, how much time would I spend in that State?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a typical 3-month period, for example.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I could cover a State in 3 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were traveling in the fall of

1963, what State?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I had just come back from Michigan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you began traveling in Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I could have told you that if I had my records

here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to get a little background on yourself before we

go into some general questions. You say you came to this country when

you were about 2½?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I don’t think we did. I think, of course,

I think we stopped off in New York, and then I think we came to

Chicago. My father was here first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was your father here?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He--about a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are not sure where you came to. Did you

have a permanent home any place before you moved to Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your first permanent home in this country was in

Chicago and I take it that would have been shortly after you arrived in

the country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except when I was in the service or where else, except

when I travel but outside of--my voting is right here in Chicago, my

voting residence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in military service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From October 1942, until April 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you serve?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fort Lewis, Wash.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the army?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Fort Lewis near Seattle?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a man when you were in the service by the

name of Sloan, a man from Chicago by the name of Sloan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What business was he in or what was he doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would have been in the service out in Seattle, in the

Washington area.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The name doesn’t ring.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if your brothers visited you at any time

while you were in the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the service?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We were scattered all over the earth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this in the army, your military service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do, what rank did you attain?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a private. I was at 210 Field Artillery, 33d

Division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent all of your time at Fort Lewis?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, we were 1 day at Rockford, you know, they throw

a uniform at you and then they put you on the train and you are on the

train for 3 days, and then you wind up at Fort Lewis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; we were in Yakima for cannon training.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service in 1943?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the reason for your leaving?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Overage. They told me they had no more use for me. They

apologized, I had a good record. I got an excellent discharge, they

were sorry but they wanted a younger man in my place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you left the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I stayed in Seattle.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 10 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I signed up with the U.S. Army Engineers to go to

Alaska, to go to work as a carpenter. I felt I wanted to do something.

They were going to build barracks out there. I waited and waited and

waited and I got tired of waiting, so I asked the company that hired me

to release me, because they did not know when I would be put on a boat

to go across. The Army would have allowed only two men, civilians, with

the regular soldiers to go across Alaska at a time.

Well, I probably would have been there for 4 years waiting yet so I

decided to ask for a release, and they gave me a release and I went

back to Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the 10 weeks you spent waiting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I worked; I worked part time for the Seaboard Lumber Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the reason you were there was because you were waiting

to go to Alaska?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. In fact, I had my tools sent to me, my

father’s tools.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a carpenter before?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on your return to Chicago what did you do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took odd jobs, whatever I could get to make a buck,

you know, salesman on the road. I am trying to think what I sold,

novelties, premiums, different things that you could get. A lot of

items you couldn’t get, there was a scarcity, so you sold what you

could obtain from different companies or different friends who were in

business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for any particular company?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am trying to think. I can’t think of any particular

company I worked for. I probably bought stuff myself and sold it on the

road.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have in front of me your social security, a summary of

your social security record. Do you remember working for the Arlington

Park Jockey Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ben Lindheimer--how did that work out, I am trying to

think. I worked there just before I got in the service, and then I was

drafted, that was the last job I believe I had at the Arlington Park

Jockey Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your social security record indicates that you worked for

the Arlington Park Jockey Club in 1943.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then I probably went back there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In fact all of 1943, and in 1942 with the exception of the

fourth quarter of 1942.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was in the army for 6 months, how could that possibly

be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When did you go in the army in 1942?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. October.

Mr. GRIFFIN. October. And when were you separated from the service in

1943?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About April.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would be understandable.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Is it October? Because I know I was in the service for

6 months. That I am positive of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall when you left the service coming back to

work for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall but I probably did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are a ticket puncher like he is doing now. You come

over and ask for number two I gave you number two. You ask for number

five, I gave you number five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked in the mutuel window?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, mutuel window.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your record here indicates that you didn’t have any

employment covered by social security from 1944 to early 1949.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing during that period after you left the

Washington Park Jockey Club, and actually the last place you worked at

the National Jockey Club.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know about the names of the jockey club but I

worked at the racetrack for a while as a mutuel ticket seller.

As I said before, and I am repeating again, that I bought what I could

and sold on the road for myself, and I made a living that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

It is my understanding you were selling novelties?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Novelties, premiums, punchboards, that is about it.

That covers a lot of territory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of the country did you travel in when you were

doing that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I covered the Middle West.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you cover any of the South?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I never cared much for the South.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in the latter part of 1949 working in

Ripley, Ohio?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a bartender for a friend of mine, Bob Knoff. He

owned a tavern, the Riviera Cafe at Front and Main Streets, and Bob

said to me, I came down to visit him and he said “What are you doing?”

And I said, “Bumming around, making a few bucks selling items.” He

said, “I need a bartender. Help me out for a while.” I said, “OK.” So

I stayed with him, I don’t know, for about a year, about a year or so,

about a year, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 6 months.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right, 6 months. I don’t remember. 1949. Then I

went back to Chicago. I fixed a few things for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for Mr. Knoff?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What year was that, 1949?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1949, 1950.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went back to my own business again, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask you if you remember working for some of

these companies and then I will ask you some general questions.

Do you remember working for the Fisher Pen Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Paul Fisher is a very dear friend of mine, salesman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chicago Cardboard Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the punchboard outfit I told you about, Chicago

Cardboard was a punchboard outfit and Paul Fisher, I covered Chicago

territory for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you worked for the punchboard company where did you

travel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wisconsin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Parliament Sales Corp., do you remember

working for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sold television sets for them only in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Enterprise Contract Consultants, do you

remember working for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t even know who they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were located on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the same thing, must be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Same thing?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was the same outfit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just changed the name?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Could be. You never can tell about those outfits. Oh,

they had to change their name, I believe, because they were using the

word “Paramount.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Parliament.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And they changed it to Parliament to make it sound like

Paramount because Paramount wouldn’t let them use their name.

What is this Enterprise deal?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, that is why I am asking you.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall, either. How long did I work there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. About 6 months.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did they make?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Were they located on Milwaukee Avenue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then it must be the same outfit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people who ran it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One fellow was a nice guy and I still see him

occasionally in Chicago, Oscar Fishbein, he is president of the firm, I

believe, and I still believe he is still in business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the G.T. & I.T. Drake Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That was in 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1952.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1952. I bought a suburban carryall from a friend of

mine by the name of Harry King.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carryall or carryout?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carryall. It is called a suburban carryall. It is a car

that is designed to carry all, with glass all around it, and it looked

like a small truck where the doors opened up in back like this so you

could load and unload easily. I saw an ad in the paper, this Drake

outfit, the restaurant outfit, $100 a week, and $100 a week in 1952,

gentlemen, is a lot of money.

So, here is how it worked. I delivered, unloaded, and loaded food items

for, they paid me $60 a week and $40 for the car expense that was $100

a week. It was a hard job but I took it because it paid well. That was

it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember working for Miracle Enterprises?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Miracle?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been another name for Parliament Sales?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. What address?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for the Drake Co., who

did you work for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to work for the Lewis Ribbon Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember going back to work for a few months for

Fishbein?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I take it, you worked for the Lewis Ribbon Co., just

simply tell me if this is correct, from early 1953 until you left them.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In January of 1964.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They merged with the International Artware of Cleveland

and they sold out. My territory was already absorbed by International’s

men. In fact, they had three men in my three states and they had

no room for me and felt rather bad about it because I am a rather

conscientious worker, I like people, I don’t have trouble selling them

legitimate merchandise and I liked the work and I was doing pretty

good and they felt very bad. They promised me as soon as there was an

opening they would let me know. So that is the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to go back a few years more now. Was your

childhood spent in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you went to school in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you go in school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a couple of years of college.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college. Where did you go to college?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The YMCA Junior College.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago, and the Lewis Institute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of courses did you take?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. General courses. I was studying prelaw. I wanted to

become a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you attend these institutions?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say around 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were working at the same time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Working at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, going back to your earlier childhood, how many years

of continuous formal education did you have until you left school the

first time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I graduated high school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you graduated from high school, and then what did you

do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took whatever job I could to sustain myself and help

out the family once in a while when I could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would it have been that you graduated from high

school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I graduated in February 1922 from Hyde Park High.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your family living at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They were separated. The folks were living, my mother

was living, with the children, I think on the west side, and I was

living on the south side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with any other members of your family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been separated from the family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I left home when I was, right after I graduated grammar

school, when I was about 15. That was in 1916, around 1916 or 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to live?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to the Deborah Boys Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was a club for boys who had no home, but they had to

work or go to school. I did both. I worked after school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You lived there for about 3 years?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say about 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until you were about 18, I take it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 15 to 18. But you say you finished high school in 1922.

What did you do after you left the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I got, I believe I got a room with another fellow at

4907 Vincennes Avenue, and worked after school, and I continued going

to school and worked, whatever I could do after school. Some jobs were

easy and some jobs were tough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live with this other fellow?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Until I graduated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until about 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1916 until 1922, when you returned

to the family home, what contact did you have with your family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I used to see them, used to go over there, bring them

different things, try to talk to the kids, and see that they tried to

get along and have what they needed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to live at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a fight at home and my father wanted me to go to

work and I wanted to go to school because I knew I had to have some

education. But with eight children I could see his point but yet I

wanted to look out for myself, and I probably was advised by some of my

friends that I should leave home, and I did, and through some agency,

I don’t remember how, they suggested it would be best for me if I left

home and they found this place for me, and so I was admitted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if any juvenile court proceedings were

instituted?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. It is possible. It is possible

there were some juvenile court proceedings, it is a long time ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instituted those proceedings?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. Probably the family service on the

west side in Chicago through my mother’s complaints to this association

about my father.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you having some difficulty with your father at that

time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I just wanted to go to school, and he thought I should

go to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall an incorrigibility proceeding being

instituted against you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Incorrigibility?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember any such case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been about May of 1916 that you went to live

at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; it was after I graduated grammar school, and I

graduated in 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So you would have been 16 or 17 when you went to

live at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it was right after I graduated from grammar school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say 1917.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I was only 15½ when I graduated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were born in 1901?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; close to 1902, though, you see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall any juvenile court proceedings against

you in the early part of 1916, in May of 1916.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall being under the supervision of a probation

officer?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, tell us about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the supervision, what did

you have to do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have to report?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, maybe I had to report but I don’t remember what

the incident was. I don’t remember who the supervisor was or what I had

to do to report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember how the proceeding was instituted, who

instituted, the proceeding against you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. It is almost 50 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you return to the family in 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think I did. I wanted to stay with the family to see

what I could do to keep them together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were away from the family were

other members of the family also separated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think Earl and Sammy went to live on a farm.

Jack went to live on the north side, northwest side. I don’t know about

the girls. I don’t remember about the girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who Jack went to live with?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but it was a very nice family on the northwest

side. That is where he met a lot of his northwest-side friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more precise about the northwest side?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I couldn’t because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother was maintaining a home while you were at the

boys club. Where was her home at the time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We moved to so many places, I wouldn’t know exactly, on

the west side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the west side?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; but I don’t remember the addresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be northwest?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; straight west, around Roosevelt Road, that would be

the best specific spot that I can give you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, during your childhood while the family was

together, did you always live around Roosevelt Road?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always live in the same ward? Do you remember in

terms of wards where you lived?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it could be divided between the 24th ward and the

29th ward.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And one ward crossed the other, the boundary lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you did return home about 1922 was your

father living in the home at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your father finally come back to the home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember when he came back. I think he came

back after my mother died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned to the home, did all the rest of the

children return at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the family was brought back together somehow?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that come about?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supporting the family by 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My father, I think, was giving $10 a week, and the

girls were working, I was working, and we tried to keep the rest of the

kids in school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--first of all, let me ask you, after 1922,

prior to the time you went into the service, were there any periods

when you weren’t living in the family home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I wasn’t living in the family home?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. After 1922?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think I stayed home. I thought it my duty, I

believe, to stay home. I think it was that way. I think I felt an

obligation to take care, help take care of the family because my father

wasn’t living with us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, do you recall when Jack left school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He went to high school, I think, for 1 year, I believe

he went 1 year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he come to leave school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We often wonder ourselves because Jack is

no dummy. He has got a good head on him. I don’t think he liked school,

let’s put it that way. That would be honest. He just did not like

school, that is all there was to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any incidents that you can recall which would

indicate that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wouldn’t do his homework, that is a good enough

incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his companions during that period?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He had nice friends. He always had, because Jack was

a little bit choosy about his friends, I mean it. He always had nice

friends, fellows who either they were doctors’ sons or boys in the

neighborhood that respected Jack, and Jack was more progressive than

the rest of us, was a hustler.

Anything that he could go out and sell and make a dollar, legitimately,

even if he had to go on the road, and sell items, he was always trying

to work, always tried to--he wouldn’t have a steady job, but he was

always on the go thinking of ideas of how to make a dollar and helping

the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he left school what he first started

to do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is a good question. I imagine--let me think what

he did do. I think he scalped a few tickets during the fights. All

the kids used to do that to try to make an extra buck. That is the

only revelation that I have in my mind, but as far as a steady job was

concerned, no. Jack never cared for no steady jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this particular ticket scalping work, where would

he get the tickets?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say he borrowed $20 from some friend who had

$20. Two days before the fight he would buy $20 worth of tickets, and

then if the fight was a sellout, he would sell the tickets for maybe

50 cents or a dollar more than what he paid for the ticket and people

would be glad to pay him for it on the outside. So, he would make

himself $5 or $6, and $5 or $6 during those years would go a long way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he buy these tickets at the box office or would

there be somebody else who would go in and buy up a big block of them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; he would go to the box office himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back to your own activities a bit. Can you tell

us generally what you did from the time you got out of high school in

1922 until you went into the service in 1942?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I drove a cab for a while, I worked in a drugstore for

a while, worked for Albert Pick and Company, they were a big hotel

supply house on 35th Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was an assistant buyer, I want you to know, and I

liked it, it was interesting. I was in politics for a good many years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. It was during my Deborah Boys Club days, I met

a man by the name of Morris Feiwell, who took a liking to me, and he

encouraged me to finish school, like a sponsor, you know, and when I

graduated he says, “You come on downtown and talk to me. What do you

want to be?” I says, “I don’t know.” He says, “Do you like to study

continuously?” And frankly, I didn’t. He said, “Well, don’t study

law. I was going to put you through law school but if you don’t like

to study continuously after you learn a profession, don’t study law.”

And through him I met many big political men in Chicago, because Mr.

Feiwell was associated to our ex-Governor Henry Horner. Henry Horner

was probate judge of Cook County, and a probate judge in Cook County is

the biggest judge in the area because he took care of 5 million people

probating wills.

The judge took a liking to me because we done certain things, running

errands for him, distributing literature for the campaigns--then I met

different people, I met Ben Lindheimer. Ben Lindheimer was a big man in

Chicago, owned Arlington Park and Washington Park racetracks later on.

He finally became chairman of the Illinois Commerce Commission and also

president of the Board of Local Improvements in Chicago. So, I got

a job as a sidewalk inspector. That is when I decided to go back to

school, because the job as a sidewalk inspector was a political job,