The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and
please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mrs. BAKER. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an
attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the
assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take
your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to
it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint
resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission,
you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to
3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions
that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I
presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask
you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are
willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. BAKER. Mrs. Donald Baker.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs. BAKER. February 1, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were married on February 1, 1963?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?
Mrs. BAKER. That's me.
Mr. LIEBELER. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs.
Donald S. Baker?
Mrs. BAKER. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November
24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but
you had already been married at that time; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. I married this year.
Mr. LIEBELER. Oh, February of 1964?
Mrs. BAKER. This is 1964--I'm sorry.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley
on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were employed at the time of the
assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is
that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long had you worked there?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. Last year?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to
see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. I had seen him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had seen him?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him
around the building?
Mrs. BAKER. Just that he was awful quiet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at
all?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in
connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what
you did?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, we came out of the building across the street at
approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front
of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President
waved and he got down----
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the
motorcade came along?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, there is a divisional line--I don't know exactly what
you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front
of the Depository and then there is--I don't know what you would call
it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in
front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know if that street has a name or not?
Mrs. BAKER. I'm sure it doesn't--I have never seen one.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then after that little street that runs right in
front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with
some trees on it; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then comes Elm Street; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a
triangular plot of grass.
Mrs. BAKER. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of
Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in
the street--Elm Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs
down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street
that runs right down here--I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354,
an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge
and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass.
Mrs. BAKER. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into
Stemmons Expressway.
Mr. LIEBELER. The street that runs right down through here, the middle,
is that Main Street?
Mrs. BAKER. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were
standing?
Mrs. BAKER. Let me find the building here--it would be right here--we
were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the
building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas
School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that
the Texas School Book Depository is located?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me what you saw?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I
thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the
pavement.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is
that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise
came from when you first heard it?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there
where he was--where the President's car was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down farther on the street, you mean?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; close to the underpass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the President's car already passed you at the time
you heard the first noise?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it
had gone when you heard the first shot?
Mrs. BAKER. I don't know exactly--I could still see the back of the
car--I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.
Mr. LIEBELER. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you still see the President?
Mrs. BAKER. Not too well.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had
already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard
the first shot; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see it hit the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture
there?
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture,
which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other
pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show
you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons
Freeway, Keep Right."
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you see that sign?
Mrs. BAKER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled--we were
stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here,
I presume, the first sign--I don't know which one it is, but I saw the
bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther
out in the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this
thing hit the street near the sign?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No.
354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along
the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs.
Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing
going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little
grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the
Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by
this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward
the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that
looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me.
Mrs. BAKER. There is a sign there.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then there's another sign farther on down there.
Mrs. BAKER. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you think that it was approximately near the first
sign?
Mrs. BAKER. As I can remember, it was.
Mr. LIEBELER. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit
the street--what did it look like when you saw it?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked
just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a
firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to
get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it
were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the
sign.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or
somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?
Mrs. BAKER. It was near the signs.
Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you
saw hit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side--near
the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on
the opposite side of the street; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?
Mrs. BAKER. It was approximately in the middle of the lane--I couldn't
be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in
there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that
day.
Mr. LIEBELER. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?
Mrs. BAKER. Toward the middle of the lane.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that
correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in
relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car,
behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?
Mrs. BAKER. I thought it was--well--behind it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit
in the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand
side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just
immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right.
Mrs. BAKER. I can't remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs. BAKER. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware that they were shots?
Mrs. BAKER. With the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming
from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there
directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the
underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that
runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus
train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the
plaza--the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza--back behind
there--this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and
we didn't see anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area
that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the
Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what
you mean?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street
that runs in front of the School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Along the grass.
Mr. LIEBELER. Along the grass--alongside there, running toward the
triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running
down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside
the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there;
is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And is that where you thought the shots came from?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And when you went down there and looked, did you see
anybody at all?
Mrs. BAKER. Just a policeman and several people were down there around
the tracks working.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been
the assassin?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from
reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears
that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository
Building; is that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard
at the time?
Mrs. BAKER. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it
didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come
from the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository
Building at all while you were standing there?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the
windows in that building?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. According to the FBI report of the interview that you
gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some
man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you
came up and said he saw everything; is that so?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what he had seen?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I don't remember--he came over--I don't know when he
came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have
been later that afternoon. I think it was--I think it was later that
afternoon.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all
this?
Mrs. BAKER. He said he was sitting on that wall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission
Exhibit No. 354.
Mrs. BAKER. This wall here [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular
spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from
the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit
No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had
been sitting?
Mrs. BAKER. No; I presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up
real high--I presume he was up there on top.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward
the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and
Commerce all come together?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps
the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from
the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see
these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down
here--when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually
go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce.
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You could not see that?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or
did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the
Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?
Mrs. BAKER. It sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't
sound like it was too far off.
Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly
from the railroad tracks that go over Elm, Main, and Commerce; is that
right?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI report also indicates that after the second shot
you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could you tell where it was coming from?
Mrs. BAKER. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, could you pick out
the place on Elm Street as the approximate place where you saw this
object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil.
Let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, Mrs. Baker,
if we can.
Mrs. BAKER. Okay, after he had gone by, I got out into the street, I
guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in the middle of the right-hand lane?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes; the right-hand lane.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, we will mark that as No. 1 and we will put a circle
around it and its right in front of the Texas School Book Depository
Building.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. On Elm Street in the right-hand lane.
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And I guess that this tree was along in here somewhere?
Mrs. BAKER. I couldn't be sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. There appear to be two trees, one on this side of Elm
Street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of Elm
Street toward the Dealey Plaza.
Mrs. BAKER. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And across the street--across Elm Street there appears to
be another tree just down from the wall.
Mrs. BAKER. There's not a tree there.
Mr. LIEBELER. There's not a tree there?
Mrs. BAKER. No, there's a sign there, I think.
Mr. LIEBELER. That's a sign.
Mrs. BAKER. I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the
corner of Dealey Plaza closest towards the School Book Depository
Building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street?
Mrs. BAKER. Approximately right here--between the sign and the tree.
Mr. LIEBELER. Right here, would you say?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have indicated the approximate area where you think it
hit and we will indicate it by the No. 2, is that correct?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I have marked this photograph, Baker Exhibit No. 1, and
I have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it
just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of
our record?