Mr. O'BRIEN. Mrs. Connally on the jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy.
Mr. ADAMS. As the motorcade proceeded, could you at all times see the
Vice President's car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; similarly, the photographers and others would often
times block the view. The view of the President's car and the Vice
President's car from where I was seated during the motorcade into
and through the downtown Dallas was not a clear view. There was an
obstructed view for the most part.
Mr. ADAMS. As you recall it, what were the seating arrangements in the
Vice President's car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I know that Senator Yarborough, Mrs. Johnson, and the Vice
President were seated in the rear of the car, and my recollection is
that again the Vice President was on the right, Mrs. Johnson in the
middle, Senator Yarborough on the left.
Mr. ADAMS. Now, as you went on in town, tell me about the crowds, if
you would.
Mr. O'BRIEN. The crowds were large, unusually large for an extremely
long--mileagewise--long trip into the city. I was impressed with the
size of the crowd. The comment in our car, however, was that the crowd
was rather reserved. As a matter of fact, Congressman Rogers, who, as I
told you, was on the left rear, commented and called out from time to
time in a jocular vein, "Hello", "Howdy", and suggested to them that
they ought to smile and look perky, which we felt they were not doing
during the course of the trip from the airport to the outskirts of the
business area.
Mr. ADAMS. Up to that point, I suppose it was chiefly residential areas
that you passed through?
Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed to be residential, and a great deal of small
industry. The crowd looked to me to be middle to upper class business
type to a great extent.
Mr. ADAMS. Did you know the city of Dallas yourself?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I did not.
Mr. ADAMS. Had you been there before?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I had not.
Mr. ADAMS. Then as you got into the city, what was the nature of the
crowds?
Mr. O'BRIEN. There was a tremendous change in crowd attitude, which,
again, we commented on in the car. It seemed as though it occurred
suddenly, but yet nevertheless in retrospect it did grow as you
approached the business center. Then you found yourself going down a
road, on both sides high buildings, confetti, the crowds out in the
street, allowing just a narrow lane for the motorcade. And I would have
to describe that crowd as enthusiastic. In fact, perhaps I should say
wildly enthusiastic.
Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember any special incidents of any kind on the way
into town?
Mr. O'BRIEN. On rare occasion you saw a Goldwater sign, or some sign of
that nature, conservative sign, I guess, but not many. It was not an
unusual situation, as I recall.
Mr. ADAMS. Do you remember the motorcade stopping at anytime?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I recall the motorcade stopping, and it seems to me it
was for the purpose of the President greeting some school children.
However, I am not clear in my mind. I do recall a slowdown or an actual
stopping on at least one occasion, and perhaps more than one occasion,
between the airport and downtown Dallas. And I should add that those in
the car in which I rode, to a man, commented on the great enthusiasm of
the crowds in downtown area. I think they were making reference to it
particularly because there was somehow or other--we all concluded this
was a comparison that could be made with the crowds we had just gone by.
Mr. ADAMS. Do you recall the motorcade passing down Main Street in
Dallas?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do.
Mr. ADAMS. And then do you recall it turning off Main Street?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I do.
Mr. ADAMS. And then around onto Elm Street? You might not remember the
names.
Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall the name of the street. But I recall
distinctly a right turn.
Mr. ADAMS. And then another swerving turn?
Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.
Mr. ADAMS. At that point, were there a lot of buildings or only a few?
Mr. O'BRIEN. It seemed that when we made the turn off the Main Street,
that the crowds petered out. It was a very normal termination of a
parade route. And we just felt that while there were people on the
streets, it was not the massive crowd that we had just passed over
several blocks. And I believe that my reaction was this is about the
end of the parade route, and we were about to just sort of settle back.
There were people still on the street, but you could see that this
route was--this parade route was about to terminate.
Mr. ADAMS. And as you came around those turns, did you hear any shots
fired?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes; I did.
Mr. ADAMS. Would you tell me as best you can whether at that time you
could see the President's car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I could not.
Mr. ADAMS. Was that because your car had not turned the corner yet?
Mr. O'BRIEN. As I recall, our car was about to make that turn, and it
would seem to me, therefore, the President's car was in the process of
making the left turn. I would think that approximately the time he was
swinging on this curving left, we were swinging out of Main Street
right. We heard the shots very clearly.
Mr. ADAMS. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Three.
Mr. ADAMS. Can you estimate for me the time interval between the first
and the last shot?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't believe I can estimate the timing, but I can tell
you about an exchange that took place in the car, from the first shot
through the third shot.
Mr. ADAMS. Please do.
Mr. O'BRIEN. The first shot was fired. I just didn't conclude it was
rifle fire. I was completely unsure. And I must have almost immediately
said to the driver--I directed the question to him, for some unknown
reason--"What was that?" The driver replied, "I do not know. They must
be giving him a 21-gun salute." By the time the driver had concluded
that sentence, we did not hear explosion No. 4. And it was apparent to
us that No. 1 was not a 21-gun salute. I believe everyone in the car
concluded it wasn't, in any event, because it just was not that kind of
a sound. And we just had no idea of what had occurred at that moment.
Mr. ADAMS. Could you tell me your best recollection as to where the
sounds appeared to come from?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I didn't have any idea specifically on the location of the
sounds, and I do not recall that anyone in the car did.
Mr. ADAMS. Is it your recollection that these sounds were evenly spaced?
Mr. O'BRIEN. That is my impression. As I say, I apparently immediately
engaged the driver in conversation after the first shot which forces
me to conclude that there had to be a time between the first and
second and third shots--because I simply--describing the exchange of
my question and his answer, and his answer, I must say, probably was
completed after the third shot. But he had started his answer to the
question at about or just before the third shot.
Mr. ADAMS. Well, one way of getting at the time interval of all
three shots, I suppose, would be your recollection that it all was
encompassed in the time it took you to ask the question and the driver
to answer.
Mr. O'BRIEN. At least in the time that it took me to ask the question
and the driver to initiate the answer, but perhaps not complete it.
Mr. ADAMS. Then would it be fair to say it was a very small number of
seconds?
Mr. O'BRIEN. It certainly would be. And I think the driver completed
his answer--for 1 or 2 seconds all of us in the car were awaiting the
fourth explosion, if I can term it that, which did not occur, and there
was dead silence in the car.
Mr. ADAMS. Then do you remember anything that anyone said immediately
following the dead silence?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; I do not recall. I recall that just prior to this,
which indicates to me that perhaps we had turned that corner before
the shots, Judge Thornberry pointed to a building and said that that
was where his offices had been located at one time, either in military
service or in government service, and pointing over in the direction of
the building. We were turning the corner--and that took place before
the shots.
Mr. ADAMS. You don't happen to know the name of that building?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall. But he mentioned it in the term that he
had been stationed in that building. Now, it could have been either a
military activity or in government agency activity.
Mr. ADAMS. How did the knowledge come to you that the President had
been shot?
Mr. O'BRIEN. We noted, as the cars continued to move after the third
shot, and there was a great deal of movement on both sides in front of
us, scurrying in various directions.
Mr. ADAMS. Scurrying by whom?
Mr. O'BRIEN. People on the street--the crowds had thinned out. There
were people along the road.
Mr. ADAMS. We didn't specifically cover this, but was there a
motorcycle escort?
Mr. O'BRIEN. For the motorcade?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; around the President's car.
Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes.
Mr. ADAMS. Did that motorcycle escort extend as far back as your car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; it did not.
Mr. ADAMS. I interrupted you there. You were telling me how this
knowledge came to you, that something serious had happened.
Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade
started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from
great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the
specific nature of the occurrence. And we just were, I think you would
have to describe, very confused. I remember particularly a Negro man
with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn.
Mr. ADAMS. On which side of the car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. On the right. And that was typical of all kinds of
movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just
didn't know.
Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any radio communication in your car with the
front cars?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No; we did not. At that point, a photographer--we started
to move a little more rapidly. Our driver intended to follow the
motorcade and move out. The motorcade moved out with great speed in
front of us. And a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was
a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his
fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. We did not
get anything coherent from him. I do not think we really attempted to,
because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and
keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed.
The driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or
three minutes. He had no idea where the motorcade was headed. And they,
therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the
trade mart, which was to be the location of the President's stop and
speech following the parade route.
We pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called
out, He has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. And at that
point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the
nearest hospital. And he started to move out with great speed toward
this hospital. And as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that
was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle
police, and what-have-you. As we arrived at the hospital, there was a
great deal of commotion at the front.
Mr. ADAMS. I think you misspoke yourself. You said you pulled up in
front of the motorcade. I think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up
in front of the trade mart.
Mr. O'BRIEN. Trade mart--I am sorry.
Mr. ADAMS. Now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the
President or Governor Connally at the moment that they were shot?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not.
Mr. ADAMS. How long would you think it took you to go from the point
where you heard the shots to the hospital?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say overall it could approach 15 minutes.
Mr. ADAMS. And what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I would say 60 to 70 miles an hour.
Mr. ADAMS. When you arrived at the hospital, what did you do?
Mr. O'BRIEN. When I arrived at the hospital, two of the Congressmen
that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead
of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled
up, and asked me to follow them immediately. There was a large crowd--I
will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to
the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police.
Congressman Thomas and Congressman Brooks went up to the officers at
the door and said, "This is a Special Assistant to the President.
Let him in." So he immediately opened the doors, and I went through,
with the two Congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the
corridor the direction in which to go. There was a little confusion
in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong
direction, and were again rerouted. And in a matter, however, of a
couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, I arrived behind
these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--I saw to my right
sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor
sitting in a similar chair--to my right Mrs. Kennedy, to my left Mrs.
Connally.
Mr. ADAMS. You didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? You
went through----
Mr. O'BRIEN. Apparently not. I am not sure of the entrance. But I just
don't know. I assume that was not the emergency entrance.
Mr. ADAMS. And you said that Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were
sitting there more or less together?
Mr. O'BRIEN. No. They were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed
outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked
through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the
left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. And
outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down
perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right
and left, the President had been placed in the emergency room to the
right and Governor Connally in the emergency room to the left. Both
doors were closed at that moment.
Mr. ADAMS. Was there anyone with Mrs. Kennedy at the time?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Powers and Mr. O'Donnell were standing there.
Mr. ADAMS. Were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two
Congressmen you mentioned before?
Mr. O'BRIEN. The two Congressmen did not go through the doors with me.
They left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was
determined that I was being taken to the right location.
Mr. ADAMS. Now, at that point, you knew that--from the Congressmen and
from others, that the President had been shot?
Mr. O'BRIEN. That is correct.
Mr. ADAMS. Then did you go up to Mrs. Kennedy or Mrs. Connally, or what
did you do then?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I immediately engaged Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers in
conversation.
Mr. ADAMS. Can you recall that conversation?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Neither Mr. Powers or Mr. O'Donnell had a clear idea of
the situation at the moment, but Mr. O'Donnell certainly gave me a
positive indication that there was little or no chance.
Mr. ADAMS. Did you have any conversation with Mrs. Kennedy at that
point?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not have any conversation other than attempting
to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief
moments of that nature. But conversation was extremely limited.
Mr. ADAMS. Do you know where the Vice President was at that time?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I did not see the Vice President in the hospital. I was
given to understand by Mr. O'Donnell he was down the corridor--again,
if I did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he
was in a room across the hall.
Mr. ADAMS. How long did you stay there?
Mr. O'BRIEN. Until the President was taken from the hospital.
Mr. ADAMS. You stayed there with Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right.
Mr. ADAMS. During that whole time?
Mr. O'BRIEN. That is right. During that period General McHugh at one
point, Malcolm Kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in
and out, Mrs. Lincoln, Dr. Burkley came in and out from time to time.
Mr. ADAMS. Was Dr. Burkley also in the emergency room?
Mr. O'BRIEN. I don't recall.