Mr. GUINYARD. Mr. Callaway followed him, you see, we was together--he
was my boss at that time and he followed him.
Mr. BALL. Callaway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; trying to see which way was he going.
Mr. BALL. And then, which way did he go after he got to Jefferson?
Mr. GUINYARD. He went west on Jefferson--on the right-hand side--going
west.
Mr. BALL. And what did Callaway do?
Mr. GUINYARD. He turned around and run back to the street and we helped
load the policeman in the ambulance.
Mr. BALL. He ran back up to 10th Street, did you say?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you go with him?
Mr. GUINYARD. Right with him.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police car there?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did you see besides the police car?
Mr. GUINYARD. The police that was laying down in the front of the car.
Mr. BALL. A policeman?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was he dead or alive at that time?
Mr. GUINYARD. He looked like he was dead to me.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. Helped put him in the ambulance.
Mr. BALL. You stayed there until the ambulance came?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you there when the truck came up that was driven by
Benavides?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He came up right after this?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he came up from the east side--going west.
Mr. BALL. And then what did you do after that?
Mr. GUINYARD. Well, we stood there a while and talked and I called him
Donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. Who did--Benavides?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you pick them up--any of them?
Mr. GUINYARD. He picked them up--I didn't pick them up--I was there
with him.
Mr. BALL. You were there?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was there with him.
Mr. BALL. You were there when he picked them up?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were they?
Mr. GUINYARD. Laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around
the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. Were they anywhere near the bushes?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in
the yard just laying down through the yard--that little old shrub that
was there.
Mr. BALL. Later that day, did you go down to the police department?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; I went down that night.
Mr. BALL. That same night?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you go down with?
Mr. GUINYARD. Me and Ted.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. GUINYARD. Ted--Ted Callaway.
Mr. BALL. Ted Callaway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you went to the police station?
Mr. GUINYARD. I went to the identifying office.
Mr. BALL. You went into a place where there were police officers?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And how did you identify him--tell me what happened to you,
what you saw?
Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I just saw him.
Mr. BALL. Well, were you in a big room?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--in a big room.
Mr. BALL. With police officers?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see?
Mr. GUINYARD. I don't understand you.
Mr. BALL. Did you see some men up ahead of you?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men.
Mr. BALL. Four men?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes--four men--handcuffed together.
Mr. BALL. What did you say?
Mr. GUINYARD. They was handcuffed together.
Mr. BALL. They was handcuffed?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; all four of them.
Mr. BALL. Were they of different sizes?
Mr. GUINYARD. Well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much
difference in size.
Mr. BALL. In height--they were about the same?
Mr. GUINYARD. About the same.
Mr. BALL. Were they all about the same color?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.
Mr. BALL. All about the same color?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.
Mr. BALL. Did you say anything to any police officer there after you
saw them?
Mr. GUINYARD. I talked to one--with the detective--after he came out
there.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him--I mean in this room--as you saw these
four men up there?
Mr. GUINYARD. He just asked me reckon I could identify them and I said
I sure could.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. GUINYARD. I just told him I sure could.
Mr. BALL. What did you say to him about it?
Mr. GUINYARD. Well, I didn't say anything--I was just waiting on them
to bring them in.
Mr. BALL. After they brought them in and after you looked at them, what
did you tell the police officers?
Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that was him right there--I pointed him out
right there. That was him right there.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember where he was standing in the lineup--what
number he was?
Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know what his number was, but I can tell you
where he was standing at.
Mr. BALL. Where was he standing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was standing--the second man from the east side, and
that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from
that there end.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell any police officer that you thought that was
the man?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you tell; what police officer was it?
Mr. GUINYARD. I don't know his name.
Mr. BALL. You don't know his name?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; I don't know his name but I know him now if I
would see him.
Mr. BALL. Before you went in there, did the police officers show you
any pictures?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did the police officer say anything to you before you went in
there?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that he thought they had the man that killed the
police officer?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir; he didn't tell me that.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Ted Callaway say anything before you said you
thought that was the man?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you with Ted at the time?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How close was Ted to you?
Mr. GUINYARD. Oh--sitting about like that.
Mr. BALL. You mean 3 or 4 feet away from you?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; something like that.
Mr. BALL. How was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. He had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and
a little sort of light-gray-looking jacket.
Mr. BALL. A gray jacket.
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a light gray jacket and a white T-shirt.
Mr. BALL. A white T-shirt?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; a white T-shirt on under it.
Mr. BALL. Now, he had a light gray jacket on?
Mr. GUINYARD. And a brown shirt on.
Mr. BALL. And a white T-shirt on?
Mr. GUINYARD. Underneath it, because this brown shirt was open at the
throat and the white T-shirt under it like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL. That's all I've got to examine you about now, except to show
you these clothes, and they are upstairs. We will go up now and take a
look at them.
(At this time Counsel Ball, the witness Guinyard and the reporter
Oliver left the deposing room on the third floor of the Federal
Building and resumed in a deposing room on the fourth floor of the
Federal Building and the deposition proceedings continued as follows:)
Mr. BALL. Sam, I'll show you an exhibit here, which is a piece of
clothing and which is marked Commission Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever
seen this before?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. When and where?
Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see anybody wearing it?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who?
Mr. GUINYARD. Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. GUINYARD. Oak Cliff.
Mr. BALL. Tell me a little more about it.
Mr. GUINYARD. In Oak Cliff and down in the courtroom.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. GUINYARD. Down in the examining room.
Mr. BALL. When this man came down Patton Street toward Jefferson with
his gun, you have mentioned he had a shirt on?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You described that shirt as a brown shirt?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Does this look anything like the shirt?
Mr. GUINYARD. It looks just like it does.
Mr. BALL. You saw that shirt before?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. GUINYARD. Down at the city hall.
Mr. BALL. At the police station?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what did you tell them when they showed you this shirt?
Mr. GUINYARD. I told them that that's the shirt he had on.
Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162;
have you ever seen this before?
Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket.
Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot.
Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. I have no further questions for you, Sam, and I thank you for
coming down, and you can go home now.
Mr. GUINYARD. Thank you.