Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned
the rifle was found, but I did not see it.
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz
the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle
was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz--after what,
you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth
floor, Captain Fritz was standing in the area where I later learned
they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that
Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him,
so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other
men--officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I
repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing--I told him what his
name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr.
Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left
the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked
over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where
did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to
Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and
sometime--someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know
who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and
I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the
sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I
don't recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else
on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no
occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best
estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his
address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10
minutes.
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you
exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not
found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found
the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some
other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the
gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is
that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz
was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found
it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after 1 o'clock, when was it that
you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the
assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10
minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1.
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came
down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my
memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed
he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so--I don't feel like at was. It could have
possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't
found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee
Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until
Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time
you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the
name and address?
Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.
Mr. BALL. Immediately?
Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his
name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told
Captain Fritz at that time.
Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three
officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few
things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Not over that?
Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All
right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."
Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it
might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald
wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was
not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it
was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after
retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have
to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it
could have been 1 or 1:05 or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of
the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in
and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that
this boy wasn't among the other workers.
Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Now, you heard that Tippit had been shot, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Not after--until after I had told Chief Lumpkin and Captain
Fritz and come back down to the first floor, then I learned that he had
been shot. The first I learned of it--there was a young officer ran in
the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that
there was an officer shot in Oak Cliff and that was all I knew at that
time. I did not know that they had captured Oswald then. Later on a
newspaper reporter told me.
Mr. BALL. Now, you say that you knew that Givens was not there
afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. I knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because I
had seen him walk across the street--up the street.
Mr. BALL. Toward what?
Mr. TRULY. Up Elm Street across Houston.
Mr. BALL. Toward Main--down toward Main?
Mr. TRULY. I saw him walking on the north side of Elm, crossing
Houston--on the north side of Elm crossing Houston. However, at that
time I saw two other boys with him and I later learned, I believe,
that it was James Jarman and possibly Harold Norman--there were two or
three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they
started across Houston Street up Elm. I didn't see them turn over to
the right across Elm.
Mr. BALL. Wait a minute--you saw Norman and Jarman with Givens in front
of the Texas School Book Depository Building first, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before
the shooting--I believe they were the three.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Jarman and Norman going across Elm?
Mr. TRULY. I'm pretty sure there was the three of them.
Mr. BALL. And Jarman and Norman say that they went back into the
building?
Mr. TRULY. Well, apparently they did, but I saw them out there--I
noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but
whether they completed it--I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Where is the last place you saw Givens?
Mr. TRULY. The last place I remember seeing Givens was in the middle of
the crossing, in the middle of Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Walking in which direction?
Mr. TRULY. Walking east.
Mr. BALL. Walking east on the north side of Elm?
Mr. TRULY. North side of Elm--he had not completely crossed the
street--Houston Street.
Mr. BALL. Now, did Givens come back to the building later?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't see him--later on he did.
Mr. BALL. When--how much later?
Mr. TRULY. Much later--I suppose--I don't know his actions during that
day.
Mr. BALL. Did he come back to the building?
Mr. TRULY. No.
Mr. BALL. After the shooting?
Mr. TRULY. I can't say--I think he came back to the front of the
building--I can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--I
know he was at the police station later on.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all right now.
(The deposition of the deponent Truly was adjourned from Room 301
Federal Building, Dallas, Tex., and continued at the office of the
deponent Truly in the Texas School Book Depository Building, 411 Elm
Street, Dallas, Tex., as follows:)
Mr. BALL. Mr. Truly, when you came into the building with Officer Baker
you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I sure did.
Mr. BALL. And where did you see the elevators?
Mr. TRULY. On the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor.
Mr. BALL. They were both up on the fifth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You are sure of that?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure, because their bottoms were level.
Mr. BALL. When you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any
of the floors?
Mr. TRULY. When I reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there,
but west one was not.
Mr. BALL. Do you know where it was?
Mr. TRULY. No; I don't. I didn't look, I just remember it wasn't
upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere.
Mr. BALL. You took the east elevator?
Mr. TRULY. I took the east elevator load to the seventh floor.
Mr. BALL. That's all.
Mr. TRULY. Fine.