The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Now, Mr. Truly, this is a continuation of your deposition.
I took the last one and you have been sworn and I don't know that it
is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a
continuation of the deposition. I took the last one, didn't I?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, no; I gave a statement that was under oath.
Mr. BALL. Oh, no; this is a deposition. You appeared before the
Commission--that's right.
Mr. TRULY. Mr. Belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before
I went up there when you both were in Dallas and he also took a
recorded deposition.
Mr. BALL. Yes; that was just an investigation, an inquiry. We didn't
record that. You weren't under oath then. Will you stand up and be
sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TRULY. I do.
Mr. BALL. Now, will you state your name, please?
Mr. TRULY. Roy S. Truly.
Mr. BALL. And you are superintendent of the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. TRULY. That's correct.
Mr. BALL. Is that your title?
Mr. TRULY. And a director of the Depository.
Mr. BALL. You have been employed by the Depository for a number of
years?
Mr. TRULY. Since 1934; since 1934.
Mr. BALL. You testified before the Commission in Washington, you say,
on the 24th of March 1964; did you not?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Your testimony is filed in volume 28, I believe, of the
Commission here. There are certain matters which have come to the
attention of the Commission since then that I would like to inquire
about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will
be in addition to the testimony you have already given.
Do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the Texas School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I did.
Mr. BALL. Prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I saw two guns on November 20.
Mr. BALL. Whose guns were they?
Mr. TRULY. They belonged to Mr. Warren Caster.
Mr. BALL. Now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two
guns that belonged to Mr. Warren Caster on November 20, 1963, I'll ask
you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that
time saw guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never before.
Mr. BALL. Never before, and between that date Wednesday, November 20,
and Friday, November 22, did you ever see any guns in the Texas School
Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. I did see guns in there after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. That is, you saw guns of police officers?
Mr. TRULY. Of the police officers.
Mr. BALL. Carried by police officers?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and I saw a rifle being carried from the building.
Mr. BALL. In other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You saw that in place on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. No; I did not.
Mr. BALL. You didn't?
Mr. TRULY. I only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door.
Mr. BALL. Before the assassination, was there any other occasion
besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the Texas
School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. Never.
Mr. BALL. On November 20, 1963, you saw two guns owned by Mr. Warren
Caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under
which you saw these guns?
Mr. TRULY. It was during the lunch period or right at the end of the
lunch period on November 20. Mr. Caster came in the door from the
first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just
purchased. I looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two
and examined it and handed it back to Mr. Caster, with the remark that
it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time
Mr. Caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go
deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to
buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a .22 rifle for
his boy.
Mr. BALL. Did you handle the .22 rifle?
Mr. TRULY. Not that I recall.
Mr. BALL. You did see it, though?
Mr. TRULY. I did see it.
Mr. BALL. Was it out of the carton?
Mr. TRULY. The carton was open, I believe, and I saw it. I don't recall
picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but I could see it lying
in the bottom part of the carton.
Mr. BALL. And you did take the large rifle out?
Mr. TRULY. And raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of
sighting it, but not cocking it--just looking at it.
Mr. BALL. Who else was there besides you and Mr. Caster?
Mr. TRULY. Well, the only person I can recall being there was Mr.
Shelley.
Mr. BALL. And what is his position with the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. TRULY. He is manager of the miscellaneous department.
Mr. BALL. Was this in the open warehouse?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; right at the front. Mr. Caster had placed the cartons
on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were
when I saw them, and I picked one up out of the cartons.
Mr. BALL. And were they employees of the Texas School Book Depository
company on the first floor at that time?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; they were--as I recall the time--that the boys had
probably gone back to work and could have been walking around before
they went in the shipping department.
Mr. BALL. That would have been about what time of the day?
Mr. TRULY. I'd say around 1 o'clock--very close to it. It could have
been a little after or a little before. The boys go back to lunch at
12:45, so there I'm not too clear.
Mr. BALL. What happened to these two rifles, Mr. Truly, that Mr. Caster
got during the noon hour?
Mr. TRULY. They were placed back in the carton and Mr. Caster carried
them out of the lobby door with him. That's the last I saw them.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see them again?
Mr. TRULY. Never--never.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see from that day until Friday, November 22, did
you ever see those guns in the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. BALL. Now, you recall that in your testimony before the Commission
you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised Captain
Fritz of the name of Lee Oswald and his address in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. And in order to place the time of it, was it before or after
the rifle had been found on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. I wouldn't know. I think it must have been around the time
the rifle was found, because I was not on the sixth floor at that time,
but when I told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--I told Chief
Lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he
went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding
him and then said, "Let's go up and tell Captain Fritz."
Mr. BALL. Now, what did you tell Chief Lumpkin when you came down from
the roof of the building?
Mr. TRULY. When I noticed this boy was missing, I told Chief Lumpkin
that, "We have a man here that's missing." I said, "It may not mean
anything, but he isn't here." I first called down to the other
warehouse and had Mr. Akin pull the application of the boy so I could
get--quickly get his address in Irving and his general description, so
I could be more accurate than I would be.
Mr. BALL. Was he the only man missing?
Mr. TRULY. The only one I noticed at that time. Now, I think there was
one or two more, possibly Charles Givens, but I had seen him out in
front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun.
Mr. BALL. But walking which way?
Mr. TRULY. The last time I saw him, he was walking across Houston
Street, east on Elm.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a check of your employees afterwards?
Mr. TRULY. No, no; not complete. No, I just saw the group of the
employees over there on the floor and I noticed this boy wasn't with
them. With no thought in my mind except that I had seen him a short
time before in the building, I noticed he wasn't there.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean "a short time before"?
Mr. TRULY. I would say 10 or 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. You mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom?
Mr. TRULY. In the lunchroom.
Mr. BALL. And you noticed he wasn't over there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him around and he
said No.
Mr. BALL. Now, you told Chief Lumpkin that there was a man missing?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; and he said, "Let's go tell Captain Fritz." Well, I
didn't know where Captain Fritz was.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you tell Chief Lumpkin the man was missing before or
after you called to the warehouse and got the name?
Mr. TRULY. No, I called the warehouse beforehand.
Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to any police officer before you called the
warehouse and got the address?
Mr. TRULY. Not that I remember.
Mr. BALL. You did that on your own without instructions?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. So, when you talked to Chief Lumpkin, you at that time had in
your possession there the address of Lee Oswald in Irving?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, I had scribbled it down on a piece of map or
something so I would remember it.
Mr. BALL. That is the address that he had put on his application form
for employment?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you know of any other address?
Mr. TRULY. I didn't know of any other address at all.
Mr. BALL. Of Lee Oswald?
Mr. TRULY. I supposed that's where he was living.
Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the
rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the
building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was
found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the
sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your
talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on
the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth
floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that
this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving
address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had
been found?