Mr. BELIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, discussion was had off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. On the record.
Now, Mr. Waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me
that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only
number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. Do you ever have
any other numbers assigned to them?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What would be the occasion for assigning a different number?
Mr. WALDMAN. When the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope
and mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the
rifle, the scope and the mount.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes
and mounts?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source
as the rifle itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. No.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 1, does the
date April 13, 1962, have anything to do with the time with which you
received orders from customers of Klein's for any of these rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. That date has no reference to our activity with consumers
as such. It only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed
from one model to another, both models being very similar.
Mr. BELIN. Both being the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 caliber rifle?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you to state if you know what that is.
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. What is it?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a delivery receipt from the Lifschultz Fast
Freight covering 10 cases of guns delivered to Klein's on February 21,
1963, from Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. I note that there is some handwriting on Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 2 that says. "Klein's Sporting Goods, Inc., J. A. Mueller,
2-21-63." Would that be one of your employees at that time?
Mr. WALDMAN. He was. Mr. Mueller was in charge of our receiving
department at that time.
Mr. BELIN. And do you know how many guns or rifles would have been
packed in each carton or case?
Mr. WALDMAN. Referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of
which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts;
these were packing receipts included in each case. It was indicated
there were 10 rifles in each case.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; these are memos prepared by Crescent Firearms showing
serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these
represents those rifles that were contained in a case.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the
case.
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I would like to correct that. This particular
company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos
separately with their invoice.
Mr. BELIN. Now, again, Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a
photostatic copy. Do you have the actual copies that came to you in
front of you at this time?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. And is Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 an accurate
photostat of these other copies?
Mr. WALDMAN. It is.
Mr. BELIN. I notice that there are numbers on each of these papers
with 10 serial numbers each. I see here No. 3672, 3504 on the first
photostat of Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3. Do you see that?
Mr. WALDMAN. I do.
Mr. BELIN. I'm going to ask you to search through these 10 photostats
and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number,
C-2766.
Mr. WALDMAN. Crescent Firearms delivery memo No. 3620 covering carton
or case No. 3376 does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial No. 2766.
Mr. BELIN. Well, is it 2766 or is there a prefix to it?
Mr. WALDMAN. There is a prefix, C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. And you see that as also a part of Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 3; I believe you are reading from the actual document in
your possession which Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 3 is a photostat
of; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. When a shipment of rifles is received, what is your
procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the
rifles?
Mr. WALDMAN. We assign to each rifle a control number which is a
number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our
possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with
both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which
is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give
different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes?
Mr. WALDMAN. The gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each
gun. It's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique
identification for each gun.
Mr. BELIN. Well, I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 4 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is the record created by us showing the control
number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that
is imprinted in the frame of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Now, this is a photostat, I believe, of records you have in
front of you on your desk right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you find anywhere on Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 4 the
serial number C-2766?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And what is your control number for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Our control number for that is VC-836.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman
Deposition Exhibit No. 5 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an invoice rendered us by Crescent Firearms on
their date February 7, 1963, for one hundred each 6.5 Italian rifles.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles
were shipped to you?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's indicated as having been shipped by the North Penn
Transfer-Lifschultz and that there were 10 cases or cartons.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show whether or not this invoice was paid?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows that payment was made on March 4, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement
agency about the disposition of this Mannlicher-Carcano rifle that had
the serial number C-2766 on it?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; on the night of November 22, 1963, the FBI contacted
our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our
possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know how the FBI happened to contact you or your
company?
Mr. WALDMAN. The FBI had a record of a gun of this type and with this
serial number having been shipped to us by Crescent Firearms.
Mr. BELIN. Do you mean that Crescent Firearms gave the FBI this
information?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, I--I must assume that's the case. I don't know it
for a fact.
Mr. BELIN. All right. What did you and your company do when you were
contacted by the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. We met with the FBI in our offices.
Mr. BELIN. Was this on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. WALDMAN. On Friday evening, November 22.
Mr. BELIN. Did the FBI indicate at what time, what period that they
felt you might have received this rifle originally?
Mr. WALDMAN. We were able to determine from our purchase records
the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a
record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date
of receipt by us, and from that we made--let's see, we examined our
microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and
related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been
shipped by us.
Mr. BELIN. Are these microfilm records part of your customary recording
of transactions of your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; they are.
Mr. BELIN. I'm handing you what has been marked as an FBI Exhibit D-77
and ask you if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a microfilm record that--of mail order
transactions for a given period of time. It was turned over by us to
the FBI.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know when it was turned over to the FBI?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was turned over to them on November 23, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you are reading from the carton containing that
microfilm. Do you know whose initials are on there?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on
the date on which this was turned over to the FBI concerned with the
investigation.
Mr. BELIN. You have on your premises a machine for looking at the
microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And you can make copies of the microfilm prints?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. I wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to
take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the
appropriate records that you found on the evening of November 22.
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm
machine.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call
D-77 into your viewer which is marked a Microfilm Reader-Printer, and
you have identified this as No. 270502, according to your records. Is
this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's a number which we assign for identification
purposes.
Mr. BELIN. And on the microfilm record, would you please state who it
shows this particular rifle was shipped to?
Mr. WALDMAN. Shipped to a Mr. A.--last name--H-i-d-e-l-l, Post Office
Box 2915, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. And does it show any serial number or control number?
Mr. WALDMAN. It shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number
VC-836 and serial number C-2766.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a price shown for that?
Mr. WALDMAN. Price is $19.95, plus $1.50 postage and handling, or a
total of $21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see another number off to the left. What is this
number?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number that you referred to, C20-T750 is a catalog
number.
Mr. BELIN. And after that, there appears some words of identification
or description. Can you state what that is?
Mr. WALDMAN. The number designates an item which we sell, namely, an
Italian carbine, 6.5 caliber rifle with the 4X scope.
Mr. BELIN. Is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm
record?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the date of shipment was March 20, 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Does it show by what means it was shipped?
Mr. WALDMAN. It was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle
around the letters "PP."
Mr. BELIN. Does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order
itself?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was
$21.45, as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here.
Mr. BELIN. Opposite the words "total amount enclosed"?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything which indicates in what form you received
the money?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes; below the amount is shown the letters "MO"
designating money order.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date,
March 13, 1963; to what does that refer?
Mr. WALDMAN. This is an imprint made by our cash register indicating
that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our
register on that date.
Mr. BELIN. And to the right of that, I see $21.45. Is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other record that you have in connection with
the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative
frame that we are looking at right now?
Mr. WALDMAN. We have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from
a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of
the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog No. C20-T750;
and he has shown the price of the item, $19.95, and gives as his name
A. Hidell, and his address as Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else on that negative microfilm frame?
Mr. WALDMAN. The coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was
mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner the return address
of A. Hidell, Post Office Box 2915, in Dallas, Tex.
There is a postmark of Dallas, Tex., and a postdate of March 12, 1963,
indicating that the order was mailed by airmail.
Mr. BELIN. Can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper
right-hand corner?
Mr. WALDMAN. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. And the stamp itself says "United States Airmail"?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that
correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's true.
Mr. BELIN. And someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. And is it possible on this machine to make prints of these
negatives?
(Whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.)
Mr. BELIN. I think the record should show that all of this testimony
has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the
actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking
of this testimony, please.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the
deposition originally commenced.)
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Waldman, I'm going to mark what has FBI Exhibit D-77
on it as Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 6, being the container with
your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the
microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs.
Now, I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 7 and ask you to state if you know what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer
of an order received by Klein's from a Mr. A. Hidell, Post Office
Box No. 2915, in Dallas, Tex. I want to clarify that this is not the
order, itself, received from Mr. Hidell, but it's a form created by us
internally from an order received from Mr. Hidell on a small coupon
taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine.
Mr. BELIN. This Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 7 is a print from the
microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 8 is also a print from
the microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and
the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. And do you have any general advertising program whereby you
advertise in gun magazines?
Mr. WALDMAN. We do.
Mr. BELIN. Can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which
this coupon might have been taken?
Mr. WALDMAN. Well, this coupon was specifically taken from American
Rifleman Magazine, issue of February 1963. It's identified by the
department number which is shown as--now, if I can read this--shown as
Department 358 on the coupon.
Mr. BELIN. And that number also appears in the address on the envelope
to you, is that correct, or to your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. That's correct.
Mr. BELIN. Now, I believe that you said the total amount was $19.95,
plus $1.50 for shipping charges, or $21.45; is that correct?
Mr. WALDMAN. The $1.50 is for both shipping charges and handling.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you what has been marked as Commission Exhibit No.
788, which appears to be a U.S. postal money order payable to the order
of Klein's Sporting Goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named
A. Hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is Post Office Box
No. 2915, and the purchaser's City, Dallas, Tex.; March 12, 1963: and
underneath the amount of $21.45, the number 2,202,130,462. And on the
reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank.
I wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine
it, please.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is a stamped endorsement reading "Pay to the order
of the First National Bank of Chicago," followed by our account No. 50
space 91144, and that, in turn, followed by "Klein's Sporting Goods,
Inc."
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not that is your company's
endorsement on that money order?
Mr. WALDMAN. It's identical to our endorsement.
Mr. BELIN. And I hand you what has been marked as Waldman Deposition
Exhibit No. 9 and ask you if you can state what this is.
Mr. WALDMAN. This is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that
shown on the money order in question.
Mr. BELIN. You have just now stamped Waldman Deposition Exhibit No. 9
with your endorsement stamp?
Mr. WALDMAN. Correct.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order
was deposited by your company?
Mr. WALDMAN. I cannot specifically say when this money order was
deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order
for $21.45 passed through our cash register on March 13, 1963.