Mr. STERN. That was the last question he was asked?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.
Mr. STERN. And then what happened?
Mr. SORRELS. He was told that they were going to move him to the
county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out
of his--the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him,
because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended
was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz
sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark
colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was
taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I
left and went up to--I say up--down the hall to the executive office
area of the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief
Batchelor.
And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw
the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting
there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby
Goldstein, who is known as Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and
pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He
was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there
at the police station. And we were just waiting around there.
And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that
was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking
about open windows, I see one open across the street over there" at a
building across the street.
I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we
had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the
Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just
heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack
Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run
a night club.
Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the
basement.
Mr. STERN. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the
relevant information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert
yesterday.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. And actually back just a little bit.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your
interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify
anything you said yesterday to him?
Mr. SORRELS. We were trying to establish something about the time
yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not
fix any exact time.
But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been
shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into
the basement of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still
on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as I
said yesterday, and I immediately called my headquarters office in
Washington and told them about Oswald being shot by Jack Rubin, a
night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get additional
information and call them back.
And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went
back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there
when I left and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my
thought was to talk to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could.
Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I
asked where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I
would like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail
elevator, went right on up there. So----
Mr. STERN. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call
to Deputy Chief----
Mr. SORRELS. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after
thinking the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at
the time this call was made, I would say that that phone call was
probably made between 11:25 and 11:30, I would say.
Mr. STERN. Fine.
Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police
the plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the
move was made?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10
o'clock in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz--and as I recall this
conversation--I said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an
announced time. I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning,
when there is nobody around."
And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these
people," talking about the press and television people, and said that
he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them
all he can. And that was all that was said about that.
I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with
Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was
trying to tell them how to run their business.
Mr. STERN. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of
police headquarters from Friday through Sunday?
Mr. SORRELS. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to
actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people
just, as the expression goes, took over. I would almost every time
I went up there, definitely after the 22d, I would have to identify
myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor,
if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office
or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through,
and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost
that I would come out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door
opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and I got where I
just shadowed my eyes when I walked down there to keep the light from
shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one of the deputy
chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side
of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could
get power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down
to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And
it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost
indescribable.
I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas
Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office
with Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange
for her to get up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was
stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time
keeping them--I thought they were going to barge on in there. They were
yelling like mad--because Mr. Underwood was in there, and one of them
was there yelling--"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a
right to be in there."
Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz'
office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying
to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--I am not going
upstairs."
That was just the situation you were booked up against there.
And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me
something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to
make."
And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement
made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr.
Kelley, the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will
have to come from Inspector Peterson in Washington."
Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't
bother me any more.
Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they
would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would
say, "That is Sorrels of the Secret Service."
That happened more than once.
And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The
officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me
and pass me through.
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were
in that corridor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but
there were dozens of them.
Mr. STERN. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the
corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.
Mr. STERN. Did you ever learn why this was not done--did you ever ask?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I did not. I just thought to myself--well, if this was
being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist.
That is what I thought.
But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself--well,
they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting
them out. That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do
know that the Dallas Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office,
they do try to go along with the press and everything like that.
After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before,
who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times
Herald, he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of
there, and that includes us."
Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief
Curry or anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of
there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have
really blasted them in the press.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, that covers the ground that I wanted to ask you
about.
Is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this
morning with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in
front of the Book Depository, your return there, anything that elapsed
while you were at the police headquarters from Friday afternoon through
Sunday morning--or with respect to anything you told Mr. Hubert about
yesterday?
Just take a moment and think about it.
And if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you
have said that you think the Commission should know, please tell me.
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot recall anything right now, Mr. Stern.
Mr. STERN. I would like you to identify this one page memorandum
entitled "Statement of Forrest V. Sorrels, Special Agent in Charge,
U.S. Secret Service, Dallas, Tex., November 28, 1963."
I have marked this "Exhibit 5," deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7,
1964.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that I wrote up.
Mr. STERN. Would you initial that for me, please?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. Would you review the statement and see if there is anything
you would like to add to it?