Mr. STERN. That is Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with
Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was
shot.
Mr. STERN. Did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer
for Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was
in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the
name of Abt, or some similar name like that. I never had heard of him
before. Apt, or some similar name.
And Captain Fritz said, "Well, you can use the phone and you can call
him."
Mr. STERN. When was this?
Mr. SORRELS. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that
Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone.
Mr. STERN. But you didn't observe it?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not observe that; no.
Mr. STERN. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the
American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. He said if he could not get this man--I wish I could
remember his name--a very short name, Apt or something like that.
Mr. STERN. A-b-t?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, A-b-t. Yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a
lawyer supplied by the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. STERN. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can
remember?
Mr. SORRELS. He was questioned about the rifle, because, at that
time, as I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been
purchased from Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the
name of A. Hidell. And he was questioned by Captain Fritz along those
lines. And he denied that the rifle was his. He denied knowing or using
the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell.
He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time
still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were,
of course, directed towards getting information. A lot of them he
would not answer. And a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent
falsehoods.
And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and
deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to
become angered, because he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner
from time to time.
Mr. STERN. But you think that was acting--not genuine?
Mr. SORRELS. That is the impression I got, that he was just
deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe
get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he
shouldn't do.
That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason--I guess
one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview,
on Sunday morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different
attitude. In other words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't
giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't
flaring up like he did before.
Mr. STERN. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you
know of that it was scheduled to end?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the
impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the
morning, and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in
the morning--we were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came
around and asked Captain Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was
holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and
get him moved as quick as they could.
Mr. STERN. Did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to
move him at 10 o'clock?
Mr. SORRELS. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter
of fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me
afterwards, he said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk,
I hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told Chief
Curry, "We will be through in a few minutes."
And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him
any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained
a change of address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in
which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was
to receive mail at that particular address in New Orleans was named A.
Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald about that thing, because he
had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of A. Hidell, and he
denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell.
So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him, "Now,
here is a change of address card that you filed in New Orleans," and he
looked at it.
He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently
in his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that
you have not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card
here as the name of A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this
address. If you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have
that name on that card?"