The testimony of H. Louis Nichols was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Samuel A. Stern,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. STERN. Good morning, Mr. Nichols. Will you stand and raise your
right and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. NICHOLS. I do.
Mr. STERN. Sit down, please. As you know the President's Commission
has been instructed by President Johnson to inquire into all the facts
surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy. This morning I
would like to cover with you what you know about Lee Harvey Oswald,
whom I understand you interviewed at the Dallas Police Headquarters.
Would you state your name and business address?
Mr. NICHOLS. H. Louis Nichols. 1200 Republic Bank Building, Dallas.
Mr. STERN. What is your profession?
Mr. NICHOLS. I am an attorney.
Mr. STERN. And how long have you been a member of the bar?
Mr. NICHOLS. Since 1939.
Mr. STERN. What bars are you a member of?
Mr. NICHOLS. State Bar of Texas, and admitted to practice in the
Northern District of Texas, Federal Court.
Mr. STERN. What position do you presently hold with the Dallas Bar
Association?
Mr. NICHOLS. I am a member of the board of directors for the Dallas
Association, at the present time. During 1963, I was President of the
Dallas Bar Association.
Mr. STERN. During the calendar year, 1963?
Mr. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. I see. Would you relate for us, Mr. Nichols, in your own
words, what occurred respecting Lee Harvey Oswald and your inquiry
whether he had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the
period of his detention, which began on November 22, 1963?
Mr. NICHOLS. Sometime in the afternoon on Saturday the 23d of November,
as I best recall, in the neighborhood of about 2 o'clock, I received
a phone call from a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas who asked me if I
knew whether or not Mr. Oswald was represented by an attorney.
I told him I did not. He said he had received a phone call from an
eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the East, who told
him that the news media up there were saying that Oswald could not get
a lawyer to represent him in Dallas, and he wanted to know if I knew
anything about the situation. I told him I had not been following it
too closely on television, because I was out Friday and then out with
my boy on Saturday morning and didn't know really whether or not he had
a lawyer.
And he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted
to know what I knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't
able to get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do
anything about it. I told him I didn't know what the situation was,
but that I would be glad to look into it, and--it had been less than
24 hours since Mr. Oswald had been arrested. In order to refresh my
memory as to what the requirement of the State law is, and since I
don't practice criminal law, I called a lawyer friend of mine in Dallas
who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand what the
obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did
not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation
was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as
he understood it, since Mr. Oswald had not been indicted there was no
legal obligation to appoint an attorney.
I also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer
friend of mine in Dallas who said he had received a call from a dean of
a law school. One of the calls was from one dean of one law school. The
other was from another. I have forgotten which schools they were, and I
don't remember which called first with regard to the various deans, but
he wanted to know from me whether or not the bar association was doing
anything. Whether Oswald had a lawyer. And whether or not if he didn't
have one, we should do anything about getting him one, and I told him
I had had a previous telephone call from another friend of mine, and
that I had made some inquiry, and at this time I did not know whether
Oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that I was going to
make some inquiry to find out about it. After talking to the second
friend about it who called, I then called Mr. Henry Wade, the district
attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not Oswald was
represented by a lawyer or not.
I did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because
I had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. I hadn't
talked to anybody who was really informed, and I called Mr. Wade. He
said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew
he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent
Oswald. I asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office
had been advised that Oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for
a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer.
I asked him too, as he was going up there, and I asked him if Oswald
requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the
Dallas Bar Association would get a lawyer if he needed one.
By that time I had time to think about what I thought my obligation
should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people
might overlook the fact that Oswald had rights that needed to be
protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless
of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar
association, ought to look into the matter.
Mr. Wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and
he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was,
and if Oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer
appointed--he would tell him of my conversation. I then called Glen
King, and a captain on the police force that I knew. I used to work for
the city attorney's office, and still represent the city credit union
and have a brother on the police force, so, I have known many of these
people for many years. I called Captain King and asked him whether or
not Oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an
attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him,
and Captain King said that as far as he knew there had been no one
representing him, and as far as he knew, Oswald had not asked for a
lawyer. He had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and--or had
not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him--and Captain King said, "If
he does, I am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we
want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. We don't want it to
be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to
have a lawyer."
I said, "Well, Glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer,
or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have
talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that I have
offered to get him a lawyer if he wants one."
And Glen said, "Well, I'll just throw it back to you. You come down and
talk to him. I would be glad to have you talk to him."
I said, "I didn't know whether I wanted to or not at this point." I
hadn't quite decided at that point whether we could do something about
it, and I didn't know whether Oswald had his own attorney, but I told
Captain King if I decided to take him up on his offer I would come and
see him.
It was about 3:30 or 4 o'clock. By that time I had talked to a criminal
lawyer, I had talked to Mr. Wade, I had talked to these two lawyer
friends of mine in trying to decide what, if anything I should do.
Up to that time I had not been told by any of these people that Oswald
had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether
he had a lawyer. None of them knew for sure. I didn't--I then received
a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at S.M.U., and he
wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything
about getting a lawyer for Oswald. I told him what had transpired, what
I had done, and I hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if
anything by me, as president of the bar association.
He seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful
if I would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not
Oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and
hadn't been able to get one, and I told him that I had not decided what
to do, so, I sat around and decided if it had to be done. It seemed
like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people
I talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a
lawyer that I decided I might as well go up and talk to him, so, I
cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. That was probably 5:30 or
so in the afternoon.
Mr. STERN. City hall is where he was confined?
Mr. NICHOLS. City hall in Dallas, where Oswald was confined. Having
worked there I knew where the chief's office was.
I knew Captain King, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his
office was in the same place so, I went to the third floor of the city
hall, now called the Police and Courts Building.
The building in which the police department is located and the jail is
located, and where I assumed Oswald was at that time. I went up to the
third floor, and when I got off the elevator there was just a whole mob
of reporters and photographers and television cameras and cables and so
forth stretched out on that floor. Cables running in both directions,
and I went down into the chief's office, which is the eastern end of
the building, and when I went in there, there were a number of people
in his office, in the reception room, three or four people back in the
chief's office, Chief Curry's office, a number of people, and I asked
one of the officers in the reception room if Captain King was there and
he said, "Well, he didn't think so."
About that time Chief Curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and
motioned me in, and I went in there and he introduced me to one of the
FBI agents who was there, and I told him I was up there as president
of the bar association looking for Captain King. I had talked to him
earlier and I had come up there to see whether or not Mr. Oswald had a
lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the Dallas Bar Association to do
anything.
The chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see
Oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to
another part of the building, and he asked me where I wanted to talk to
him. If I wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be
convenient with me, and I told him that any place would be all--I just
wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard
to him having a lawyer. So, we then went through a door on the third
floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the
chief again asked me where I wanted to talk to him. I said, "Well, just
any place."
By that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated
by bars and a door. Beyond that door were three separate cells, and
there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the
first door and got to that point and Mr. Oswald was in the center
of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an
officer seated outside there. The chief had the officer open the door,
and he introduced me to Oswald, and told him my name and said that I
was the president of the Dallas Bar Association and had come up to see
him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the
chief stepped back and--I don't really know how far away. He was at
least--he was far enough removed where I couldn't observe him or see
him there in the cell. The officer stayed just right outside the door
there. I reintroduced myself to Oswald and told him my name, and that
I was president of the Dallas bar, and that I had come up to see him
about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a
lawyer, and suggested that he sit down.
So, he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other. Maybe 3 or 4 feet apart.
When I got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when I
came in and then he sat on one bunk and I sat on the other, much as
you and I are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and I
asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "Well, he really didn't know
what it was all about, that he was--had been incarcerated, and kept
incommunicado," and I said, "Well, I have come up to see whether or not
you want a lawyer, because as I understand--" I am not exactly sure
what I said there, or whether he said something about not knowing what
happened to President Kennedy, or I said that I understood that he was
arrested for the shot that killed the President, and I don't remember
who said what after that. This is a little bit vague.
I had covered that point in detail, and I don't recall exactly, but in
any event, our conversation was such that I informed him that I was
there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he
said--he asked me first did I know a lawyer in New York named John Abt,
and I don't know if it is A-b-t, or A-p-t.
Mr. STERN. I believe it is A-b-t.
Mr. NICHOLS. I believe it is. In New York City, I said I didn't know
him, and he said, "Well, I would like to have him to represent me,"
and at some period I believe prior to that, either in talking to the
police, or talking to--must have been talking to either Captain King
or the chief--I had been told that some effort had been made to get
hold of Mr. Abt, and that he was in Connecticut at his home, and maybe,
and I have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. At
least, I did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him,
but I told Mr. Oswald I didn't know him. He said, "Well, that is the
man he would like to have represent him." Then he asked me if I knew
any lawyers who were members of the American Civil Liberties Union, and
he said, "Well, I am a member of that organization, and I would like
to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me."
And I said, "I'm sorry, I don't know anybody who is a member of that
organization."
Although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers I know are
members. Two or three of them called me later. He said, "Well, if I
can't get either one of those, and if I can----"