The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10 a.m., on April 8,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant
counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SIMS. I do.
Mr. BELIN. You are Detective Richard M. Sims?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Detective Sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony
in front of or before Joseph A. Ball?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. At that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case
hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of
the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22, 1963. Do you
remember that he asked about those?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just
how you came to see those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I, my partner, were on the
seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the
hulls had been found.
So we took the freight elevator, I believe, or the stairs, and went
to the sixth floor. Went to the southeast corner and three hulls were
laying there by the window on the floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did you pick up the hulls at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Waited for the arrival of Lieutenant Day with the crime lab
to take pictures of the scene.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who came with Lieutenant Day, if you can
remember?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. I believe it was Studebaker. I am not positive
about that.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were
taken?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't stay there all the time.
Mr. BELIN. After the pictures were taken, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. I was over there, I believe, when they finished up with the
pictures, and I picked the three hulls up and laid them on what I
believed to be a box of books there near the window, and Lieutenant Day
dusted them for fingerprints.
Mr. BELIN. Then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically
remember what you did with those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. I didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your
recollection as to what happened to the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I talked to Captain Fritz and E. L. Boyd, my
partner, and refreshed my memory.
Mr. BELIN. What was said, and what do you now say happened?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz told me to get the hulls after Lieutenant Day
finished with them and to take possession of them.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do?
Mr. SIMS. I did that.
Mr. BELIN. How did you take possession of them?
Mr. SIMS. I placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember which pocket?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do with them?
Mr. SIMS. When we got to the city hall, I gave them to Captain Fritz in
his office.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what time that was, possibly?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they took my notes the other day. I couldn't say.
Whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to
the city hall there? Is that why you happened to go down to the city
hall that afternoon?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we were going to get started on Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on your way down there to investigate whether or
not he had any record?
Mr. SIMS. I didn't know what he had at the time. I don't remember. I
was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few
minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Why were you going to get started on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know. Captain Fritz said go to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. Did he tell you that they were going to get started on
Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. No. He said go to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. And that is what you did?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. When you got to the city hall, did you go directly to
Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you got there, was anyone inside?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Who was there?
Mr. SIMS. His office was full of people.
Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald one of them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. In Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. No. He was, I believe, now in the interrogation room. I am
not positive. He wasn't in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do with that envelope when you got to Captain
Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. I laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or
either gave it to him.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember which one?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now what caused you to remember now what you actually did
with the hulls? I mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that?
Mr. SIMS. Talked to Captain Fritz, and I remember we was going over to
where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we
was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be
sure and get the hulls.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I went over to where the rifle was found, and went back
later to where the hulls were.
Mr. BELIN. Were the hulls still in the location you left them for being
dusted for fingerprints?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were still taking pictures.
Mr. BELIN. Were they still taking pictures, or dusting them?
Mr. SIMS. I hadn't picked them up. They were still, as far as I can
remember, taking pictures, because Captain Fritz left two officers to
preserve the scene.
Mr. BELIN. When you got back, what did you do after they got through
with the pictures?
Mr. SIMS. When he got through with the scenery I picked the hulls up.
Mr. BELIN. Was it then that he dusted them, or what?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, did Captain Fritz tell you that this is what you did,
or Boyd tell you?
Mr. SIMS. No, I remembered the other day when I testified I wasn't too
sure who brought them down, and then after I talked to Captain Fritz
and Boyd, I remembered definitely we were walking over to where the
rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so I did
that.
Mr. BELIN. Did Captain Fritz tell you, or the other, Day, that you were
the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember?
Mr. SIMS. I remembered putting them in my coat pocket.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Detective Sims, just so that I can have a complete
understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection,
you talked to Captain Fritz about this after you testified here on
Monday?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say, if you remember?
Mr. SIMS. I told him I couldn't remember for sure about who brought the
hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then I
talked to him.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say?
Mr. SIMS. He said, "Well, remember I told you to get the hulls and
bring them to the office."
And I talked to Boyd, my partner, and he said that Captain Fritz had
said that, too, so I remembered exactly about where I was when he told
me this.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, Captain Fritz told you on Monday, that back
on November 22, he had told you to get the hulls? Is that what Captain
Fritz told you on this past Monday?