Mr. BALL. In the afternoon, did you work on this case? On the Oswald
case?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I'm sure we did.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you did?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't talk to any.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. When was the next time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. At 6 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. We brought him back to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. Who are "we"?
Mr. SIMS. Myself, M. G. Hall, and Detective L. C. Graves.
Mr. BALL. Where was Boyd when you did that?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. He wasn't with you at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you get Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. From the jail.
Mr. BALL. You took him to Fritz' office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SIMS. We returned him at--myself, Hall, and Graves--returned him at
7:15 to the jail.
Mr. BALL. Now, were you in Captain Fritz' office during that
interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. No; I don't believe I was.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what you did after that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't know what I did after that.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Oswald again?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did see him again.
Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 24th?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I was off that day.
Mr. BALL. And you heard of Oswald's death over the radio; is that right?
Mr. SIMS. Over the television.
Mr. BALL. You watched it over television, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might
go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any?
Mr. STERN. Yes; I have a few things I would like to ask him with
reference to this--I'm not sure that we identified his notes and I
believe we ought to do that.
You were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when,
Mr. Sims?
Mr. SIMS. In regards to the President's assassination and the killing
of Officer Tippit.
Mr. STERN. When did you make the memorandum?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know--it was shortly after the 24th.
Mr. STERN. Within 3 or 4 days?
Mr. SIMS. The same week--yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And you made it with your partner, Officer Boyd, the two of
you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. You worked it out together?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears
as Commission Document 81-B, at pages 234 through 240. Was this
memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the
things occurred?
Mr. SIMS. Notes and memory.
Mr. STERN. They were made from your notes and memory?
Mr. SIMS. From my notes and memory.
Mr. STERN. And those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was
prepared?
Mr. SIMS. Mr. Boyd may have his--I don't have mine.
Mr. STERN. You don't have your notes?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have mine.
Mr. STERN. The memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific
figure--is this because you had some record of these times?
Mr. SIMS. We keep records of the time that things happen.
Mr. STERN. To the nearest minutes?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. STERN. And that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum?
Mr. SIMS. That's right.
Mr. STERN. The information you gave us a little earlier describing the
two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your
statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is
that right?
Mr. SIMS. You mean their descriptions?
Mr. STERN. Yes; their descriptions.
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got the descriptions after I was notified to be
over here.
Mr. STERN. Do you know these individuals?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know them.
Mr. STERN. And these descriptions are accurate?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know about the weight. I got this off of
their descriptions we have up there in the ID bureau in the personnel
file--that weight, I believe, Perry's--I just guessed at the weight.
Mr. STERN. Do you have the same descriptions available for the two city
prisoners?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I have those.
Mr. STERN. Would you tell us what those are?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. Richard Walter Borchgardt, he is 23 years of age,
5' 9", 161 pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.
Ellis Carl Brazel [spelling] B-r-a-z-e-l, he's 22 years of age, 5' 10",
169 pounds. Now, this weight could be one way or the other because this
was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description.
Mr. STERN. This information was obtained from police records?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir. He has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion.
Mr. STERN. As far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the
two?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say. I know it was what we had in our
identification jacket--these are their descriptions.
Mr. STERN. But you have no independent recollection now of their
description?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. At page 3 of your memorandum, in describing events at the
School Book Depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred
just after Lieutenant Day picked up the rifle and dusted it for
fingerprints--the memorandum states: "Some man then called Captain
Fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. This man gave Captain
Fritz the name of Lee Harvey Oswald and his home address in Irving,
Tex."
Would you give me something more about that--how Oswald's name came up
and in what context the name was given?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; this man, I believe, was some supervisor there at
the store, and he gave Captain Fritz Oswald's name and address.
Mr. STERN. Do you know why he gave it to him? In what connection he
gave it to him?
Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive about this, but I believe that Oswald was
missing.
Mr. STERN. I see.
Mr. SIMS. In other words, most of the employees returned back to their
jobs after the assassination.
Mr. STERN. Do you know whether any other employees were missing?
Mr. SIMS. No; I don't.
Mr. STERN. But as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned?
Mentioned by the supervisor at the Book Depository?
Mr. SIMS. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. STERN. Now, the search in which you participated of Oswald at 4:05
on Friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either
you or Mr. Boyd found five live rounds of .38 caliber pistol shells,
and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to
your memorandum--Oswald took his ring off and gave it to you?
Mr. SIMS. That's right.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Do you remember anything else that was found on Oswald at
that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't remember anything else.
Mr. STERN. A wallet or identification card?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that had been taken off of him.
Mr. STERN. That had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time
of his arrest?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know when, but he didn't have it on.
Mr. STERN. Did you say anything to him at that time about the
ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol
shells--cartridges--did you comment on that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Did he say anything about it?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; there was no comment at all.
Mr. STERN. Or on the bus transfer slip?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was asked something about it--I don't remember
what I asked or what he said.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sims, what was your impression of Oswald during Friday
and Saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his
demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was
conducting himself?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he conducted himself, I believe, better than anyone I
have ever seen during interrogation. He was calm and wasn't nervous.
Mr. STERN. He knew what questions he wanted to answer and what
questions he didn't?
Mr. SIMS. He had the answers ready when you got through with the
questions.
Mr. STERN. Did he complain at any point about his treatment during the
course of the day?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and I asked
him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things
of that nature, and I don't believe he ever accepted any of them.
Mr. STERN. But he was never complaining about his treatment?
Mr. SIMS. Oh, he complained two or three times--I don't know what it
was about--about not having a lawyer or something. He said he wanted a
lawyer, and things of that nature.
Mr. STERN. But not about his physical treatment?
Mr. SIMS. No; I believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye,
and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--I believe he
said he deserved being hit in the eye.
Mr. STERN. Why was that?
Mr. SIMS. Because the officer had a right to do that--I believe that's
what he told us.
Mr. STERN. What about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that?
Mr. SIMS. He said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. He named some lawyer up
in New York.
Mr. STERN. He said that to you or to Captain Fritz in your presence?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I heard it--I don't know whether he said it to
me--whether he told it to Captain Fritz or he may have told it to me.
Mr. STERN. What was the response from the police officer in charge at
any time he mentioned getting a lawyer?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it was. I believe he used the telephone.
Mr. STERN. Did he seem tired to you in the course of the
interrogations? Or showups?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. By the time of your last contact with him, a little after 12
that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about
him?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Would you still describe him the way you did before?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was still alert--quick.
Mr. STERN. Calm?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Could you describe the conditions in the corridor and
other areas around Captain Fritz' office and the room in which the
interrogations were taking place? During the day Friday and Saturday.
Mr. SIMS. Well, of course, our office--Captain Fritz' office was
crowded.
Mr. STERN. With officials?
Mr. SIMS. Official FBI, Secret Service, and Government officials and
city officials--Texas Rangers and State officials.
Mr. STERN. Was this making interrogation more difficult?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know if it would or not. A number was in
Captain Fritz' office during the interrogation--I believe during all of
the interrogations.
Mr. STERN. Were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked
all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the
course of the same interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. Several people conducted the interrogation. Of course, there
wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to
him and more or less ask him questions.
Mr. STERN. How about the conditions outside the offices, in the
corridor, as to people who were not officials?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it was a problem getting through. It was crowded.