Mr. CARROLL. They were behind him.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a
shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see
that?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I didn't see that.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike him?
Mr. CARROLL. I didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that
someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get
him.
Mr. BALL. Did you grab some part of Oswald?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.
Mr. BALL. Where?
Mr. CARROLL. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his
arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.
I mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and
detailing it--I believe it was his right arm.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?
Mr. CARROLL. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making
sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of
a vigorous scuffle or something like that.
Mr. BALL. What happened then after that?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was McDonald
and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was--I
think it was Hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out
through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front
where we had left it--where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in
our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding
next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--I don't
know exactly when it was--Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he
got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson,
I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the
police station.
Mr. BALL. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he
hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe
those were his words--the latter part--"Protest the police brutality"
were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he
hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.
Mr. BALL. Did he say he hadn't done anything?
Mr. CARROLL. The best I remember that was it--after we had him in the
car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't
done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's
wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what
he said.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes--there was one, I believe it was on the left--right
eye--I can't recall which one it was--I know he had a mark up here,
somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye--I'm not real
sure.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?
Mr. CARROLL. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car.
Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything
right there, we was trying to get him subdued.
Mr. BALL. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud
voice or speaking softly?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult
because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was
pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"Kill him,"
or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and
after we come out of the theatre--I couldn't hear, you know, if he said
anything I couldn't actually hear it.
Mr. BALL. Did you shut Oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep
his mouth shut?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday--he said that as Oswald came
out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one
man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his
head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front--when
we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I
say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two
people, I know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did
not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.
Mr. BALL. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car
ask Oswald if he had shot the President?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't think--I don't think they asked him if he shot the
President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think
most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.
Mr. BALL. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at
the time?
Mr. CARROLL. Like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he
said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done--just carry a pistol."
Mr. BALL. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You
killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being
asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving
the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as
we could.
Mr. BALL. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?
Mr. CARROLL. The pistol?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. CARROLL. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt
immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the
theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.
Mr. BALL. And he was sitting in the front seat?
Mr. CARROLL. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I
think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting
there.
Mr. BALL. And you went down to the police station?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. CARROLL. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I
was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly
from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the
third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right
into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our
interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery
office.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you release him to?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall which one of the officers it was--there
were several standing around there, but they would just take him and
hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and
they more or less come in and we would back off.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. CARROLL. I went into the police personnel office.
Mr. BALL. Who went in there with you?
Mr. CARROLL. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson,
Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with
us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't
remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but
he did come down with us.
Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his
ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons
and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and
taken care of.
Mr. BALL. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before
you got to the personnel office?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.
Mr. BALL. He unloaded it there in the car?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And were you able to see that?
Mr. CARROLL. Wait just a minute--I know he checked the cylinder and I
don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he
waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the
car.
Mr. BALL. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; and I saw the bullets.
Mr. BALL. It was unloaded in your presence?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?
Mr. CARROLL. Just--the cylinder was full--six.
Mr. BALL. Six bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.
Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there at that time?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment
or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine these bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. I looked at them, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?
Mr. CARROLL. Not--just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like
bullets.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?
Mr. CARROLL. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a
small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to
me like a hammer might have fallen on it.
Mr. BALL. On the firing pin?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might
have fallen on the cap.
Mr. BALL. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?
Mr. CARROLL. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a
glass?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was
just a real light indent.
Mr. BALL. That was without a glass?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel
department?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was McDonald there that day?
Mr. CARROLL. I'm sure he was--I don't actually recall him sitting
there. He was there most of the time.
Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; I saw him make a mark.
Mr. BALL. When was this done?
Mr. CARROLL. It was up in the personnel police office.
Mr. BALL. At this meeting that you were just describing?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes; when we were all in there together.
Mr. BALL. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald
make the mark on the gun?
Mr. CARROLL. Well, let's see--there was myself, Mack, I think Ray
Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe
Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and
I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or
not. There were so many people--I would have to kind of explain that--I
know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there
and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen
newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it
was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail
this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time.
It was so jumbled up there.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you give the gun to finally?
Mr. CARROLL. After I gave it to--Jerry Hill--that was the last time I
had possession of it--possession of the gun.
Mr. BALL. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or
the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.
Mr. BALL. But you know in the personnel department after you had
delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six
bullets?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes sir.
Mr. BALL. With this group of officers?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you examined them?
Mr. CARROLL. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all.
Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you
have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and
signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it
on to the Commission.
Mr. CARROLL. Yes, sir; all right, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you want to waive signature?
Mr. CARROLL. No, sir; I will sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch
with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down
and look it over.
Mr. CARROLL. All right.
Mr. BALL. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr. CARROLL. All right, thank you.