THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
[_A recess was taken._]
THE PRESIDENT: There are two things that I want to say. One of them
relates to the Prosecution and one of them relates to the Defense. It is
desired that the Prosecution should furnish documents to the
interpreters when they are going to use documents in the course of
examination or cross-examination. Documents need not necessarily be in
the language which the interpreter is going to use, but there must be
some document in some language, one of the languages, placed before the
interpreters in order to assist.
The other point is that I am told that the defendants’ counsel are not
getting their documents ready for the Translation Division in anything
like the 2 weeks beforehand which was specified by the Tribunal. The
Tribunal, it is true, said that the documents must be furnished to the
Tribunal or the Translation Division 2 weeks ahead, if possible. Those
words “if possible” are being treated too lightly and the documents, I
am told, are sometimes coming in as late as 48 hours before the case of
the particular defendant is to be taken. That is not sufficient and it
will lead to delay. That is all.
MR. DODD: May it please the Tribunal, in the course of the
cross-examination of this defendant by the French Prosecution, reference
was made to Document 3766-PS and I understood Dr. Horn to say that that
document was not a captured document. That was my understanding of his
statement. I am not altogether sure that that was what he said when he
approached the microphone. So that the record will be perfectly clear, I
now wish to inform the Tribunal that it is a captured document and I do
not know upon what basis Dr. Horn made that assertion.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Horn.
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I have not, so far, had any opportunity—it has
been stated that we are dealing with a captured document, and I have had
no opportunity of checking the matter beforehand. It said on the top of
this document that it was a USA exhibit, Document Number 3766-PS, and I
had no opportunity of checking this on its arrival. I have therefore
requested that this fact be kindly established by the French
Prosecution. That was my sole objection. I did not deny that it was a
captured document; I was merely unable to prove it.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other prosecutors wish to ask questions of
the defendant? Colonel Amen, the Tribunal hopes that you are not going
over ground which has already been gone over.
COL. AMEN: Most certainly not, Sir.
[_Turning to the defendant._] You speak English pretty well, Ribbentrop?
VON RIBBENTROP: I spoke it well in the past and I think I speak it
passably well today.
COL. AMEN: Almost as well as you speak German?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, I would not say that, but in the past I spoke it
nearly as well as German, although I have naturally forgotten a great
deal in the course of the years and now it is more difficult for me.
COL. AMEN: Do you know what is meant by a “yes man” in English?
VON RIBBENTROP: A “yes man”—_per se_. A man who says “yes” even when he
himself—it is somewhat difficult to define. In any case, I do not know
what you mean by it in English. In German I should define him as a man
who obeys orders and is obedient and loyal.
COL. AMEN: And, as a matter of fact, you were a “yes man” for Hitler,
isn’t that correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: I was always loyal to Hitler, carried through his
orders, differed frequently in opinion from him, had serious disputes
with him, repeatedly tendered my resignation, but when Hitler gave an
order, I always carried out his instructions in accordance with the
principles of our authoritarian state.
COL. AMEN: Now, you were interrogated frequently by me, were you not,
before this Trial?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, once or twice, I believe.
COL. AMEN: Now, I am going to read to you certain questions and answers
which were given in the course of these interrogations, and simply ask
you to tell the Tribunal whether or not you made the answers that I read
to you. That question can be answered “yes” or “no”; do you understand?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
COL. AMEN: “I have been a loyal man to the Führer to his last
days. I have never gone back on him. I have been a loyal man to
his last days, last hours, and I did not always agree with
everything. On the contrary, I sometimes had very divergent
views, but I promised to him in 1941 that I would keep faith in
him. I gave him my word of honor that I would not get him into
any difficulties.”
Is that correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that according to my recollection is correct. I did
not see the document and I did not sign anything, but as far as I can
remember, that is correct.
COL. AMEN: Well, what did you mean by saying that you would not get him
into any difficulties?
VON RIBBENTROP: I saw in Adolf Hitler the symbol of Germany and the only
man who could win this war for Germany, and therefore I did not want to
create any difficulties for him, and remained faithful to him until the
end.
COL. AMEN: Well, what you really meant was that you were never going to
cross him, and you promised him that in 1941, isn’t that true?
VON RIBBENTROP: I would never cause him any difficulties, yes, I did say
that. He often found me a rather difficult subordinate, and that is when
I told him that I would not cause him any difficulties.
COL. AMEN: In 1941 you told him that no matter whether you differed with
his opinion in the future, you would never press the point, isn’t that
true?
[_There was no response._] “Yes” or “no”?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, not quite that, but...
COL. AMEN: Well, approximately that, is that right?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, it cannot be put that way. I only meant, if I may
explain it this way, that I would never cause him any difficulties; if a
serious divergence of opinion should ever arise, I would just withhold
my own view. That was what I meant.
COL. AMEN: Well, you gave him your word of honor to that effect, isn’t
that true?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that is correct, yes.
COL. AMEN: And at that time you had talked about resigning, isn’t that
correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that is also true, yes.
COL. AMEN: And that made the Führer lose his temper and become ill,
correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. “Ill” is not the correct expression, but he became
very excited at that time. I should prefer not to mention the details.
COL. AMEN: Well, he said it was injuring his health, isn’t that correct,
and told you to stop arguing with him about any of these questions and
do what he told you to do? Right?
VON RIBBENTROP: I do not wish to say anything more about the personal
reasons, nor do I believe that these are matters which could be of any
interest here. Those would be personal matters between the Führer and
myself.
COL. AMEN: Well, I am not interested in that. I am interested only in
ascertaining if it is not a fact, and if you did not swear under oath,
that on that occasion you swore to Hitler that you would never express
or press any divergent views to anything which he desired. Is that not
correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, no! That is absolutely untrue, the interpretation is
false. I told the Führer that I would never create any difficulties for
him. After 1941 I had many divergencies with him, and even at that time
I always voiced my own opinions.
COL. AMEN: Well, Ribbentrop, whatever divergent views you had you were
never able to put any of them into effect after 1941, were you? “Yes” or
“no?”
VON RIBBENTROP: I did not understand the question. Please repeat it.
COL. AMEN: I say, no matter how divergent your views were, or what views
you expressed to the Führer on any of these questions after 1941, your
suggestions being contrary to the Führer’s were never put into effect.
Isn’t that correct? You always eventually did what the Führer told you
to do and what he wished, regardless of your own views.
VON RIBBENTROP: You are putting two questions to me. To the first I must
reply that it is not correct that Hitler never accepted suggestions from
me. Question Number 2, however, is correct. I can answer it by saying
that if Hitler at any time expressed an opinion to me and issued an
order, I carried the order through as was natural in our country.
COL. AMEN: In other words, eventually you always said “yes”, isn’t that
correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: I carried out his order, yes.
COL. AMEN: Now, I am going to read you some more of your testimony:
“He”—referring to the Führer—“considered me his closest
collaborator. We had a very serious conversation then, and when
I wanted to go away, I promised it to him and I have kept it to
the last moment. It was sometimes very difficult, I can assure
you, to keep this promise, and today I am sorry that I gave it.
Perhaps it would have been better if I had not given it. It put
me from then on in the position that I could not talk to Hitler,
in very serious and important moments of this war, in the way in
which I would have liked to, and in which, perhaps, I might have
been able to talk to him after this conversation in 1941.
“I must explain all this to you. If you do not know the
background of these things you might think perhaps that as
Foreign Minister during these last years I would like to say
more about this. Perhaps I might say one could give some more
information about this, but I want to be and remain loyal to
this man, even after his death, as far as I can possibly do it.
But I reserve the right to prove to posterity that I kept my
promise and also the right to show the role which I have played
in the whole of this drama.”
Did you or did you not make those statements under oath to me?
VON RIBBENTROP: They are...
COL. AMEN: “Yes” or “no”?
VON RIBBENTROP: Here again we have two questions. To question Number 1,
I would say that I know nothing at all. To the second question, I answer
“no.” I certainly never testified under oath to that. I was put on oath
only twice, but that is not relevant here. The statement is not verbatim
and must have been wrongly translated. It is correct that I said that I
was loyal to the Führer and that I further said that I had many
arguments with him, that we were not always of the same opinion, and
that is the essence of my statement. That is correct.
COL. AMEN: I asked you only one question, and I ask you again to answer
it “yes” or “no.” Did you or did you not make those statements in the
exact language that I just read them to you?
THE PRESIDENT: I think, Colonel Amen, he really did answer that, because
he said it is not verbatim.
COL. AMEN: But it is verbatim.
THE PRESIDENT: That is a matter of opinion. He says it is not verbatim.
COL. AMEN: Well, very good, Your Lordship.
[_Turning to the defendant._] In any event, you can see that you stated
the substance of what I just read to you; correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: As I have just said, yes.
COL. AMEN: As a matter of fact, Ribbentrop, you testified and gave this
particular testimony in English, did you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: I have often spoken English at interrogations, that is
quite true, but whether it was precisely this statement which was made
in English, I do not know. In any case, I repeat, these statements on
both points are to be understood that way; that is how they were meant.
COL. AMEN: And when you gave your testimony in English, that was at your
own request, was it not?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, that is not correct.
COL. AMEN: At whose request?
VON RIBBENTROP: That I do not know. I believe it just happened that way;
I cannot remember. I believe I spoke English mostly, and German a few
times. Most of the time, however, I spoke English.
COL. AMEN: Now, I am going to read you a little more of your testimony
and ask you the same question, which I hope you will answer “yes” or
“no,” namely: Did you give this testimony in the course of the
interrogation:
“Question: ‘Do you feel that you have an obligation to the
German people to set forth historically not only the good
things, but the bad things, for their education in the future?’
“Answer: ‘That is a terribly difficult question to answer.’
“Question: ‘Does that counterbalance the loyalty you feel
towards the Führer?’
“Answer: ‘I do not want to stand before the German people as
being disloyal to the Führer.’”
Did you make those statements?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, that is quite possible, though I can no longer
remember very exactly. But that is quite possible. So much has been said
in the course of the last few months, and then too, from a physical
point of view, I have, as you know, not been quite up to the mark, so
that I just cannot remember every single word.
COL. AMEN: All right. Now see if you recall having made these
statements:
“I always told the Führer openly my view if he wanted to hear
it, but I kept myself entirely back from all decisions, but if
the Führer once had decided, I, according to my attitude toward
the Führer, blindly carried out his orders and acted in the
sense of his decision. In a few decisive foreign political
points, I tried to give my opinion more forcefully. This was in
the Polish crisis and also in the Russian question, because I
considered this absolutely important and necessary, but from
1941 I had but very little weight and it was difficult to bring
an opinion through with the Führer.”
Do you recall having made those statements? “Yes,” or “no,” please.
VON RIBBENTROP: That is more or less true. Yes, I practically remember
it.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, the Tribunal has already heard a very long
cross-examination of the defendant, and they think that this is not
adding very much to what they have already heard. The defendant has
given very similar evidence already.
COL. AMEN: Very good, Sir. I will pass to another subject.
[_Turning to the defendant._] You have testified that there was a sharp
line of demarcation between the political and the military situations.
Correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: Between—I did not understand that.
COL. AMEN: You have testified that there was always a sharp line of
demarcation between the political and the military elements.
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. The Führer always differentiated rather strongly
between these two elements; that is correct.
COL. AMEN: And that information belonging to the military was kept
exclusively for the military and not made available to your office, for
example? Is that correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: I heard little of military matters and plans; yes, that
is correct.
COL. AMEN: And that the contrary was also true, that the information
which you obtained was not made available to the military; is that
correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: That I am in no position to judge, but I would assume
so, since I do not know what information the military received from the
Führer.
COL. AMEN: Well, you told us that the Führer’s entire plan was to keep
those political and military channels separate each from the other.
Correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, in general he kept them very severely apart. I have
already said so several times. That is why I have only just now had
cognizance of many military documents for the first time. That was
perfectly in keeping with the Führer’s decrees on secrecy, that no one
department should know more than was absolutely essential.
COL. AMEN: Now, as a matter of fact that was not true at all; was it,
Ribbentrop?
VON RIBBENTROP: I have already given you my answer.
COL. AMEN: As a matter of fact you had secret agents out who were
working jointly in foreign countries for your office, for the Army, and
for the Navy; isn’t that true?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, that is incorrect.
COL. AMEN: You are quite sure of that?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, I am certain of that.
COL. AMEN: And you are swearing to that?
VON RIBBENTROP: You mean agents who did something, who...
COL. AMEN: Who were out obtaining information for your office, for the
Army, and for the Navy at the same, jointly?
VON RIBBENTROP: I consider that highly improbable. It is, of course,
possible that somehow or other, some man may have worked for different
departments, but this was definitely not done on an organized scale. The
organization—we maintained a very small intelligence service
abroad—and the intelligence services of the other departments of the
Reich generally worked, as far as I was informed, completely apart from
ours. It is possible that here and there some person or other would work
for other, for different departments. That is quite conceivable. For
instance, some person or other in our legations, as was customary at the
English, American, Russian, and other legations, who had dug themselves
in as consular assistants or some other kind of assistants, and carried
out intelligence work for some organization or other.
COL. AMEN: So you want to change the answer you made a moment ago; is
that right?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, I do not wish to change it at all. Fundamentally, as
an organized routine matter, I never introduced any of the secret agents
who worked for the different departments abroad. It is, however,
conceivable that the department of the Foreign Office dealing with such
matters may have appointed somebody. It was, however, a fairly
insignificant affair. Today I say “unfortunately.” It is quite possible
that other agents from this department, working for other departments,
for Counterintelligence or the SD, _et cetera_, were correlated. Later
on we even—I should like to add the following: I had pronounced
differences of opinion with Himmler, over the intelligence services
abroad, and it was only through the good offices of the Defendant
Kaltenbrunner that I obtained an agreement to the effect that certain
items of information would be placed at my disposal. But later this
agreement was not honored. I think it was practically ineffective,
because it was already too late. That, I believe, was in 1944.
COL. AMEN: Will you look at Document Number 3817-PS, please? Will you
first tell the Tribunal who Albrecht Haushofer was, please?
VON RIBBENTROP: Albrecht Haushofer was a former collaborator of mine and
was a man who, yes, who dealt with German minority questions. Could I
perhaps read the letter first? Is it a letter from Haushofer? It is not
signed.
COL. AMEN: Yes, it is. Have you finished reading?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, not quite, not yet. Shall I read the others too, or
only the first letter?
COL. AMEN: We shall get to the other letters in a moment. I am trying to
make this as short as we possibly can. Does that letter refresh your
recollection that Haushofer was out in the Orient investigating various
matters and making reports to you as early as 1937?
VON RIBBENTROP: At the moment I cannot recall that Haushofer was in
Tokio but it is conceivable, it is possible that such was the case.
COL. AMEN: Well, the letter is addressed to you and it encloses a
report, does it not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Isn’t this a letter from Count Dürckheim? Isn’t there
some misunderstanding? But if you say this was written by Haushofer,
then it is conceivable that he was in Tokio; it is possible. I am not
acquainted with the details. I sent Count Dürckheim to Tokio at that
time but it is possible that Haushofer was there too. To be candid, I
have, at present, forgotten all about it.
DR. HORN: Mr. President, I have just seen that this letter is not fully
dated and is unsigned but I hear from Colonel Amen it was allegedly
written in 1937. In 1937 Ribbentrop was not yet Foreign Minister. He was
appointed Foreign Minister only on 4 February 1938.
COL. AMEN: It has the date on it—3 October—and it was captured with
Haushofer’s documents.
VON RIBBENTROP: But I consider it quite probable that this letter is
from Haushofer, although, to be quite candid, I no longer remember
exactly that he had been to Tokio in 1937.
COL. AMEN: Well, now...
VON RIBBENTROP: He was a collaborator who worked with us in the early
years but later dealt more with German minority questions, so that I
lost track of him in recent years.
COL. AMEN: I will just pass along through this document. You will find
the next document is dated 15 April 1937, requesting reimbursement and
funds for this trip.
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
COL. AMEN: And then passing to the next document, you will find a letter
to the Deputy of the Führer, Hess, saying:
“I am using the courier to send you also personally a short
report which is going to Ribbentrop at the same time. It
contains as briefly as possible a summary of what I could
observe and hear over here in 4 weeks.”
Do you see that?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, I see the letter. Yes, yes!
COL. AMEN: Then you will pass on to the next letter, dated 1 September
1937, addressed to yourself.
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes.
COL. AMEN: Enclosing a report covering the first 4 weeks.
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes, I have it before me.
COL. AMEN: Now, we will pass the report over just for the moment and you
will come to a letter dated 17 December 1937.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, the Tribunal thinks this is very far from
the matters which they have really got to consider.
COL. AMEN: Very good, Sir. If seems to me that this indicates very
clearly that copies of the same report which is included here were being
sent simultaneously to the Army, to the Navy—that went to Raeder—and
one to the Army and to Ribbentrop.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is true that the witness’ first answer was that
they did not have joint agents but he subsequently qualified that and
said they might sometimes have had joint agents.
COL. AMEN: That is right, Sir. If you think he has conceded that
point...