Kūtadanta made no reply; and the Blessed One asked again: "Answer
me, O Brahman, where does wisdom dwell? Is wisdom a locality?" 21
"Wisdom has no allotted dwelling-place," replied Kūtadanta. 22
Said the Blessed One: "Meanest thou that there is no wisdom, no
enlightenment, no righteousness, and no salvation, because
Nirvāna is not a locality? As a great and mighty wind which
passeth over the world in the heat of the day, so the Tathāgata
comes to blow over the minds of mankind with the breath of his
love, so cool, so sweet, so calm, so delicate; and those
tormented by fever assuage their suffering and rejoice at the
refreshing breeze." 23
Said Kūtadanta: "I feel, O Lord, that thou proclaimest a great
doctrine, but I cannot grasp it. Forbear with me that I ask
again: Tell me, O Lord, if there be no ātman, how can there be
immortality? The activity of the mind passeth, and our thoughts
are gone when we have done thinking." 24
Buddha replied: "Our thinking is gone, but our thoughts continue.
Reasoning ceases, but knowledge remains." 25
Said Kūtadanta: "How is that? Is not reasoning and knowledge the
same?" 26
The Blessed One explained the distinction by an illustration: "It
is as when a man wants, during the night, to send a letter, and,
after having Ids clerk called, has a lamp lit, and gets the
letter written. Then, when that has been done, he extinguishes
the lamp. But though the writing has been finished and the light
has been put out the letter is still there. Thus does reasoning
cease and knowledge remain; and in the same way mental activity
ceases, but experience, wisdom, and all the fruits of our acts
endure." 27
Kūtadanta continued: "Tell me, O Lord, pray tell me, where, if
the sankhāras are dissolved, is the identity of my self. If my
thoughts are propagated, and if my soul migrates, my thoughts
cease to be my thoughts and my soul ceases to be my soul. Give me
an illustration, but pray, O Lord, tell me, where is the identity
of my self?" 28
Said the Blessed One: "Suppose a man were to light a lamp; would
it burn the night through?" 29
"Yes, it might do so," was the reply. 30
"Now, is it the same flame that burns in the first watch of the
night as in the second?" 31
Kūtadanta hesitated. He thought "Yes, it is the same flame," but
fearing the complications of a hidden meaning, and trying to be
exact, he said: "No, it is not." 32
"Then," continued the Blessed One, "there are flames, one in the
first watch and the other in the second watch." 33
"No, sir," said Kūtadanta. "In one sense it is not the same
flame, but in another sense it is the same flame. It burns the
same kind of oil, it emits the same land of light, and it serves
the same purpose." 34
"Very well," said the Buddha, "and would you call those flames
the same that have burned yesterday and are burning now in the
same lamp, filled with the same kind of oil, illuminating the
same room?" 35
"They may have been extinguished during the day," suggested
Kūtadanta. 36
Said the Blessed One: "Suppose the flame of the first watch had
been extinguished during the second watch, would you call it the
same if it burns again in the third watch?" 37
Replied Kūtadanta: "In one sense it is a different flame, in
another it is not." 38
The Tathāgata asked again: "Has the time that elapsed during the
extinction of the flame anything to do with its identity or
non-identity?" 39
"No, sir," said the Brahman, "it has not. There is a difference
and an identity, whether many years elapsed or only one second,
and also whether the lamp has been extinguished in the meantime
or not." 40
"Well, then, we agree that the flame of to-day is in a certain
sense the same as the flame of yesterday, and in another sense it
is different at every moment. Moreover, the flames of the same
kind, illuminating with equal power the same land of rooms, are
in a certain sense the same." 41
"Yes, sir," replied Kūtadanta. 42
The Blessed One continued: "Now, suppose there is a man who feels
like thyself, thinks like thyself, and acts like thyself, is he
not the same man as thou?" 43
"No, sir," interrupted Kūtadanta. 44
Said the Buddha: "Dost thou deny that the same logic holds good
for thyself that holds good for the things of the world?" 45
Kūtadanta bethought himself and rejoined slowly: "No, I do not.
The same logic holds good universally; but there is a peculiarity
about my self which renders it altogether different from
everything else and also from other selves. There may be another
man who feels exactly like me, thinks like me, and acts like me;
suppose even he had the same name and the same kind of
possessions, he would not be myself." 46
"True, Kūtadanta," answered Buddha, "he would not be thyself.
Now, tell me, is the person who goes to school one, and that same
person when he has finished his schooling another? Is it one who
commits a crime, another who is punished by having his hands and
feet cut off?" 47
"They are the same," was the reply. 48
"Then sameness is constituted by continuity only?" asked the
Tathāgata. 49
"Not only by continuity," said Kūtadanta, "but also and mainly by
identity of character." 50
"Very well," concluded the Buddha, "then thou agreest that
persons can be the same, in the same sense as two flames of the
same kind are called the same; and thou must recognize that in
this sense another man of the same character and product of the
same karma is the same as thou." 51
"Well, I do," said the Brahman. 52
The Buddha continued: "And in this same sense alone art thou the
same to-day as yesterday. Thy nature is not constituted by the
matter of which thy body consists, but by thy sankhāras, the
forms of the body, of sensations, of thoughts. Thy person is the
combination of the sankhāras. Wherever they are, thou art.
Whithersoever they go, thou goest. Thus thou wilt recognize in a
certain sense an identity of thy self, and in another sense a
difference. But he who does not recognize the identity should
deny all identity, and should say that the questioner is no
longer the same person as he who a minute after receives the
answer. Now consider the continuation of thy personality, which
is preserved in thy karma. Dost thou call it death and
annihilation, or fife and continued life?" 53
"I call it life and continued life," rejoined Kūtadanta, "for it
is the continuation of my existence, but I do not care for that
kind of continuation. All I care for is the continuation of self
in the other sense, which makes of every man, whether identical
with me or not, an altogether different person." 54
"Very well," said Buddha. "This is what thou desirest and this is
the cleaving to self. This is thy error. All compound things are
transitory: they grow and they decay. All compound things are
subject to pain: they will be separated from what they love and
be joined to what they abhor. All compound things lack a self, an
ātman, an ego." 55
"How is that?" asked Kūtadanta. 56
"Where is thy self?" asked the Buddha. And when Kūtadanta made no
reply, he continued: "Thy self to which thou cleavest is a
constant change. Years ago thou wast a small babe; then, thou
wast a boy; then a youth, and now, thou art a man. Is there any
identity of the babe and the man? There is an identity in a
certain sense only. Indeed there is more identity between the
flames of the first and the third watch, even though the lamp
might have been extinguished during the second watch. Now which
is thy true self, that of yesterday, that of to-day, or that of
to-morrow, for the preservation of which thou clamorest?" 57
Kūtadanta was bewildered. "Lord of the world," he said, "I see my
error, but I am still confused." 58
The Tathāgata continued: "It is by a process of evolution that
sankhāras come to be. There is no sankhāra which has sprung into
being without a gradual becoming. Thy sankhāras are the product
of thy deeds in former existences. The combination of thy
sankhāras is thy self. Wheresoever they are impressed thither thy
self migrates. In thy sankhāras thou wilt continue to live and
thou wilt reap in future existences the harvest sown now and in
the past." 59
"Verily, O Lord," rejoined Kūtadanta, "this is not a fair
retribution. I cannot recognize the justice that others after me
will reap what I am sowing now." 60
The Blessed One waited a moment and then replied: "Is all
teaching in vain? Dost thou not understand that those others are
thou thyself? Thou thyself wilt reap what thou sowest, not
others. 61
"Think of a man who is ill-bred and destitute, suffering from the
wretchedness of his condition. As a boy he was slothful and
indolent, and when he grew up he had not learned a craft to earn
a living. Wouldst thou say his misery is not the product of his
own action, because the adult is no longer the same person as was
the boy? 62
"Verily, I say unto thee: Not in the heavens, not in the midst of
the sea, not if thou hidest thyself away in the clefts of the
mountains, wilt thou find a place where thou canst escape the
fruit of thine evil actions. 63
"At the same time thou art sure to receive the blessings of thy
good actions. 64
"The man who has long been traveling and who returns home in
safety, the welcome of kinsfolk, friends, and acquaintances
awaits. So, the fruits of his good works bid him welcome who has
walked in the path of righteousness, when he passes over from the
present life into the hereafter." 65
Kūtadanta said: "I have faith in the glory and excellency of thy
doctrines. My eye cannot as yet endure the light; but I now
understand that there is no self, and the truth dawns upon me.
Sacrifices cannot save, and invocations are idle talk. But how
shall I find the path to life everlasting? I know all the Vedas
by heart and have not found the truth." 66
Said the Buddha: "Learning is a good thing; but it availeth not.
True wisdom can be acquired by practice only. Practise the truth
that thy brother is the same as thou. Walk in the noble path of
righteousness and thou wilt understand that while there is death
in self, there is immortality in truth." 67
Said Kūtadanta: "Let me take my refuge in the Blessed One, in the
Dharma, and in the brotherhood. Accept me as thy disciple and let
me partake of the bliss of immortality." 68