Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that you were in Germany until
approximately the end of 1962; is that correct? December of 1962?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never met Oswald at any time while you were in
Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. No. I wanted to--I knew that he was over there going to
school, and I can't for the life of me recall where I got the scoop
that I thought he was going to some school in Berlin, and I was
thinking of going over there, to see if I could find him, but I never
did follow through. There was too much redtape.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you thought he was in Berlin going to school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. For some reason or other. I can't say right now why,
but it just seemed to me that I thought he was going to school there.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you were discharged from the Marine Corps, you
learned that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, did you not?
Mr. DELGADO. I knew he had gone to the Soviet Union before I got
discharged.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you discharged?
Mr. DELGADO. In November. As--when I got back, I saw the pictures
all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the
investigation there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But even though you had heard before you had gotten out
of the Marine Corps that Oswald had gone to the Soviet Union, while you
were in the Army in Germany you gained the impression that somehow that
he was in Berlin, going to school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; in the university there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't have any recollection of where you got this
idea?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were under the impression, then, that he had left the
Soviet Union?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes. I couldn't--Oswald loved to travel, right, but if he
couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, I'm sure
he couldn't take no life in Russia, where he was subjected to strict,
you know, watching. I couldn't picture him living over there. I thought
he had gone to, you know, like I said, the university in Berlin, to
study there. He wanted to study psychology.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was perhaps at the same university
that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the
Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. No; because I--the way I understand it, it's--there's
two big psychologists institutes in Europe. One is in Switzerland. If
he was a devout Communist or pro-Russian, as they say he was--one was
in East Berlin, and one was in Switzerland--he couldn't have gone to
Switzerland. I knew he applied for Switzerland.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you figured that because he had this interest in
psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably
wouldn't have gone to the university in Switzerland, but he might very
well have gone to the one in Berlin?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, actually it was on their own level. They would train
him their way.
(Short recess.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that Oswald was an agent of the Soviet
Union or was acting as an agent for the Soviet Union at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they
would train him their way?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, after he was defecting, I assumed he would take the
Communist way of life, and I would imagine that they would put him to
use to the best of their advantage. But this was later brought out to
be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a
factory. Whether or not that's so, I can't say. That's what they said.
Mr. LIEBELER. But at the time you were in Europe, you were speculating
to yourself that he might have been in the Berlin school?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You received no particular information? You just figured
this out for yourself?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just how well do you think Oswald learned to speak
Spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the Marine
Corps?
Mr. DELGADO. He could meet the average people from the streets and
hold a conversation with them. He could make himself understood and be
understood. That's not too clear, is it?
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think Oswald was an intelligent person?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did. More intelligent than I am, and I have a
117, supposedly, IQ, and he could comprehend things faster and was
interested in things that I wasn't interested in: politics, music,
things like that, so much so like an intellectual. He didn't read
poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and
things like that, he was a great fan.
Mr. LIEBELER. You said before that Oswald was not sufficiently
proficient in Spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or
anything like that.
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did you talk to the FBI about this question of how
well Oswald could speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him basically the same thing I told you, only then
this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave
me.
Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a test?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just in speaking to you, you mean?
Mr. DELGADO. No; a written thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. He gave you a written test?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him off the bat, I can't--my spelling is bad, you
know. I told him right then. But outside of the spelling, I could read
it and write it, you know. So he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me
what the outcome was, but I gathered it wasn't too favorable.
Mr. LIEBELER. What made you gather that?
Mr. DELGADO. The sarcasm in his voice when he said, "What makes you
think you speak Spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you
know. Well, I told him, "Your Spanish is all right in its place, you
know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time
understanding you," which is true. If you have any Spanish-speaking
fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him
what the word "peloloso" means, and I would bet you 9 out of 10 times
he would not know. That's the Castilian word for "lazy". We got words
for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that.
That's one of the things I brought up to him. But he just laughed it
off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI that Oswald was so proficient in
Spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't tell them that?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are absolutely sure of that?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he wouldn't argue with me. All those arguments on
socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were
held in English. He talked, but he couldn't hold his own. He would
speak three or four words and then bring it out in English. But as far
as basic conversation and debate; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you tell the FBI agent that Oswald would speak about
socialism and things like that in Spanish and that it seemed to give
him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in Spanish
in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him?
Mr. DELGADO. We were speaking Spanish. That gave him a sense of
superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. In
fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking Spanish, because
we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak
Spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. This was
small talk when we were talking Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI report that I have of an interview with you
on December 10, according to this report, 1963, at Leonardo----
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; that's my home.
Mr. LIEBELER. This FBI agent says that you told him that Oswald became
so proficient in Spanish that Oswald would discuss his ideas on
socialism in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. He would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our
Government or--nothing Socialist, mind you.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. He would speak to me in Spanish in front of the people, in
front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. Basically
the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking,
and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. But no ideas were
exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. Whenever
we talked about the Communist or Socialist way of life, we would do it
either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom----
Mr. LIEBELER. That was in in English?
Mr. DELGADO. In English.
Mr. LIEBELER. He never spoke of these things in Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No; he couldn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't know Spanish that well?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned one time that you and Oswald and a couple
of other fellows went to Tijuana.
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had Oswald learned the Spanish language at that time?
Mr. DELGADO. He knew the Spanish language at that time, because
when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and I was
Spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me
something in Spanish that was funny, and him and I would laugh, and he
would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with
the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, I had taught him just
what he knew, and he was very fast learning. Just like I told the FBI
agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to
learn, you know, Spanish, and would walk up to me, and I tried to teach
them the best I can. One of them wanted to learn it, because he was
going to Juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down
there, what he learned. He learned off of books and also because he
asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had
no trouble. And the same thing with Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your
outfit?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. In Jersey?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his name?
Mr. DELGADO. Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. Jones?
Mr. DELGADO. Willie Jones.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is his rating?
Mr. DELGADO. Specialist 4.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is he in C Battery?
Mr. DELGADO. No. Delta Battery.
Mr. LIEBELER. What does he do?
Mr. DELGADO. He's a radar operator also. And there's another
fellow, George Bradford, specialist 5. He's asked for it, and I've
teached--taught him to speak Spanish. In fact, I'll ask him for some
money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "I'm broke right now. I
haven't got it with me." Or "Have you got a cigarette, George?" in
Spanish, you know. "No, but I'll get you one," or things like that.
Now, I met this fellow in Germany, and there I started teaching him a
little bit. Not an awful lot, but smalltalk.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you say that Bradford and Jones knew about the same
amount of Spanish as Oswald knew?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not as much?
Mr. DELGADO. They don't know as much as Oswald. Oswald knew more than
they did, because he applied himself more. These guys would pick up a
book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. But Oswald
was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he
would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for
this phrase. Spanish is very tricky. There's some sentences you can
use, and if you use them, let's see--how can I--well, the pasts and
present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. He would get a
misinterpretation and say, "I can't say this in a conversation?", and I
would say "No. You don't say this this particular time. You use it some
place else." Like, "Yo voy al teatro"--"I'm going to the theatre"--you
know. And there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way
of saying it. The best way--let me see if I can get you a good phrase.
I can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. But some of
these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't
put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. That's
the type of guy he was. "Why can't these things be used? Why is it that
you use it now and not later?" Things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. He would learn some of the words and then he would try to
put them in a sentence logically?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the language just wasn't constructed that way?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he had difficulty in understanding that?
Mr. DELGADO. You see, in English you say things straight out; right? In
Spanish, 9 times out of 10 it is just the reverse. I am going to the
show. But if I was to translate it into Spanish, it would come out the
show I will go, or to the show I will go. So you have got to turn it
around, you know, for him. That is what I was trying to explain.
Mr. LIEBELER. He tried to construct Spanish sentences in pretty much
the same way English sentences would be constructed after he learned
the Spanish words?
Mr. DELGADO. Right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. But as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that
Oswald could make himself understood in Spanish.
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly
proficient in the Spanish language, but at least he knew some Spanish
phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas
known?
Mr. DELGADO. If there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he
wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high Spanish like I speak, you
know; he was right in the middle. Of course, there would be words, if
you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and
made himself understood.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember what kind of Spanish dictionary he had?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I don't. It was just regular pocketbook edition, the
kind you buy out there for about $2.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether Oswald spoke any other language. You
mentioned before he spoke Russian.
Mr. DELGADO. Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was proficient in Russian at that
time or highly proficient?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; I imagine he would be, because he was reading the
paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, I imagine he could
speak it also.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear him speak Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, like I say, he tried to teach me Russian, but then
another time I had some thought that what he was speaking to me was
German; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and I couldn't
figure whether it was Hebrew or German. I tried to tell him that some
of the words he had mentioned to me at the time I didn't recognize
them, but when I came back from Germany some of those words I do
remember, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. It seemed to you like it was German?
Mr. DELGADO. Like German; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you only came to that conclusion after you had been
to Germany?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. At the time it could have been Yiddish or German,
you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been Russian?
Mr. DELGADO. No; different gutteral sounds altogether.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you did not know whether Oswald spoke this other
language to any extent; he just used a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. No; I just remember his particular language, which I am in
doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know;
and I could only assume it was Jewish or German, and later on when I
was in Germany, I think, I am pretty sure it was German that he was
speaking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he speak it well or did he just use a few words?
Mr. DELGADO. He speaks it like I speak it now, you know, like, just
phrases, you know. Where he picked them up, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you teach anybody else Spanish while you were in the
Marines?
Mr. DELGADO. Just one fellow, but he denied that I taught him any
Spanish.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was that?
Mr. DELGADO. Don Murray. He took Spanish in college, and we were
stationed in Biloxi, Miss., together, and he would ask me for the same
thing. He tried to construct a sentence in Spanish like you do in
English, and it came out all backwards, and I tried to explain it to
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was he stationed with you at Santa Ana too?
Mr. DELGADO. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What makes you say he denied that you taught him any
Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. That is what the agent interviewing me told me.
Mr. LIEBELER. The FBI agent told you that?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you say then?
Mr. DELGADO. I told him that was his prerogative, but I had taught
him--I mean I had talked to him in Spanish, and he had asked for my
help, I assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing
that is happening now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you get the impression that the agent was trying to
get you to change your story?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was trying to get you to back away from the
proposition that Oswald understood Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, am I allowed to say what I want to say?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; I want you to say exactly what you want to say.
Mr. DELGADO. I had the impression now, wholeheartedly, I want to
believe that Oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but I had
the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not
being an expert shot. His Spanish wasn't proficient where he would be
at a tie with the Cuban government.
Mr. LIEBELER. First of all, you say you got the impression that the FBI
agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about
Oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about this Spanish thing, what impression did you
get about the agents?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, they tried to make me out that I didn't have no
authority to consider myself so fluent in Spanish where I could teach
somebody else. That is there opinion and they can have it as far as I
am concerned.
If a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of Spanish, if within 6
months--and I told these FBI men--he could hold a conversation with me,
I consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my
ability to teach somebody to speak Spanish, which I told him I could
take any man with a sincere desire to learn Spanish and I could teach
him my Spanish, the Spanish the people speak, you know, I could teach
him in, I could have him hold a conversation, I would say, in 3 months'
time he could hold a conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, the FBI tried to indicate to you that you yourself
were not good at Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. And did you have any feeling about the FBI agents'
attitude toward Oswald's ability with the Spanish language?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know,
he didn't know too much Spanish, as much as I wanted them to think he
did, you know. In other words, they felt he could say "I have a dog. My
dog is black." And "I have an automobile," and things like that, you
know, basic Spanish, but I don't teach--I mean I am not a teacher. I
don't go with that, you know. If a guy wants to learn Spanish, I don't
tell him, "Well, let's start off with 'I have a dog,'" you know. That
is no practical use for him, you know.
I tell him, "How do I get to such-and-such a street?" You go to a
Spanish fellow--you are in Juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer
from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what
I teach these guys, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald was able to ask questions like this and
understand them; is that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Right. Now, we had Mexican fellows in our outfit, and
Oswald could understand their Spanish, and made it known to me that
he could understand their Spanish, but in return those Mexicans could
not understand my Spanish because the Puerto Ricans, Cubans, the
Dominican Republics, they all speak real fast. Your Mexican is your
Southern equivalent to your Southern drawl, you know, "You all," and
real slow. Well, that is the Mexicans, you know. And when we speak
Spanish to them, Puerto Rican, rather, or Spanish, they have a hard
time understanding you. But he could understand what was going on, and
sometimes he would tell me, "Well, these guys here are planning a beer
bust tonight," he said. "Are you going?" He'd overhear and tell me, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did the FBI agents tell you that Murray had denied
that you had taught him Spanish? Was that when the Spanish-speaking
agent was there?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is
that right?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you find that you have to mix English words with your
Spanish to express yourself completely?
Mr. DELGADO. No; what I meant to tell the fellow there--I think is what
that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can I say
it?--you speak to me in English, and I could say it in Spanish just
about as fast as you could tell me in English, you know, like he is
working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other
fellow was telling me. I could translate that fast, you know, and
deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. And I made
another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the
majority of the words being Spanish, and English just come out, you
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you speak Spanish around the home?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your wife Puerto Rican?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does she speak Spanish?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was your wife born in Puerto Rico?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did she come to the United States?
Mr. DELGADO. About 1944, 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. How old was she then?
Mr. DELGADO. She was about 13.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Oswald used to go into Los Angeles
with you from time to time. Can you tell me approximately how many
times Oswald went to Los Angeles?
Mr. DELGADO. Once he went with me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just once?
Mr. DELGADO. Just once. That was, you know, he just stayed a night, as
far as I can remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that Oswald only went into Los Angeles with you on one
occasion?
Mr. DELGADO. That I know; yes. Right after he corresponded with these
people.
Mr. LIEBELER. With the Cuban Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. I assumed he was going there to see somebody. I never
asked him. It wasn't my business, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he later tell you that he had been to the Cuban
Consulate?
Mr. DELGADO. Yes; but I thought it was just his, you know, bragging of
some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't really believe that he had?
Mr. DELGADO. Well, no; I didn't have no interest in it, whether or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you learn that Oswald had gone into Los Angeles on
weekends at other times?
Dr. DELGADO. No; not that I know of.