Dr. HARTOGS. I am a Ph. D. in clinical psychology and an M.D.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are admitted to the practice of medicine in the State
of New York, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. In the State of New York.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have taken the examination for the practice of
medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are admitted to practice medicine in the State?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice
of medicine as a psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS. As a psychiatrist exclusively, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been practicing here in the United
States as a psychiatrist?
Dr. HARTOGS. In the States since 1949.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you practice medicine in Germany?
Dr. HARTOGS. In Belgium.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you practice in Belgium?
Dr. HARTOGS. 3 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of
medicine?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, psychologist.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are also the chief psychiatrist for the Youth House
of New York City, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you held that position?
Dr. HARTOGS. Since 1951.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of duties do you perform as the chief
psychiatrist at the Youth House? Tell us generally about what they are.
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, that's right. I examine all the children which have
been remanded to Youth House on order of the court for the purpose of
psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at Youth House are
psychiatrically examined. There is only a specific quantity, number.
As these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, I
submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and
it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not.
I at the same time teach the staff. I give workshops in the psychiatric
aspects of social work. I give seminars in which we discuss very
interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional
public of New York City is invited.
So, for instance, we gave such a seminar on Oswald. That is the reason
why I vaguely remember him.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were also, as you have testified, the chief
psychiatrist for the Youth House in 1953.
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were your duties in connection with that job pretty much
the same in 1953 as they are now?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How large a staff did you have in 1953, approximately?
Dr. HARTOGS. Approximately I would say 300.
Mr. LIEBELER. A staff?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. We have
about two staff members for every child.
Mr. LIEBELER. I see. I thought you testified previously that there were
other psychiatrists.
Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, my staff?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes, on your staff, not at the Youth House, but on your
staff.
Dr. HARTOGS. Oh, I thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how many did you have in 1953?
Dr. HARTOGS. In 1953 we had two, two or three. It changed continuously.
Sometimes we had even four.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who
were on the staff at the time Oswald was in the Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no. They are continuously changing. Sometimes they
were just for a few weeks there, but I have remained on the staff
continuously.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is an institution of the city of New
York, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions?
Is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of New York?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right now it is part of the probation department of the
city of New York, under the jurisdiction of the probation department.
Previously it was a private institution with a private board. Then
later on the city of New York took over as far as the administration
and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was
maintained. So today the private board still exists, but the probation
department of the city of New York has the jurisdiction over Youth
House.
Mr. LIEBELER. Does the city of New York support it financially?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, the city of New York pays for it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that true, do you know, offhand, in 1953, or was it
still a private organization at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. At that time it was a private organization, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are a citizen of the United States, are you not?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes, since 1945.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline for us in general terms what the
procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the Youth House
for psychiatric observation. He is ordered by the court to go to the
Youth House; he goes to the Youth House.
Dr. HARTOGS. He goes to the Youth House, that's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. What generally happens to him then?
Dr. HARTOGS. When he is in Youth House he is given a preliminary
screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure
drawings. That is a special test that is given.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who administers that, social workers on the staff?
Dr. HARTOGS. Social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a
preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right
away from the beginning we--I see them right away on an emergency basis
and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in
Youth House. We send them then to a mental hospital. So then this child
goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the
techniques of adjustment in Youth House, the Youth House philosophy.
Then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to
school. We have our own school, P.S. 613. We have our own workshops
for the children, recreation department. We have group service. We have
our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health.
So the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various
departments.
Then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the
parents of the child who are invited.
Then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when I see
the child I have in front of me the probation officer's report, the
social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents,
I have the report of group service or household, as it is called, I
have the report of the medical department, and I have the report of the
recreation department, and I have also the report of the psychologist.
And then I see the child and examine the child, and then I incorporate
in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the Youth
House staff.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately in 1953 how much of your
time you devoted to the examination of children in Youth House?
Dr. HARTOGS. 30 hours per week.
Mr. LIEBELER. 30 hours a week. And about how many children would you
see during the period of time in a week, average week?
Dr. HARTOGS. During that, 10 or 12.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that you would spend somewhere between 2 and 3 hours
with each child, is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that still true?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, I mean not with the child itself. The child is seen
for about half an hour to an hour.
Mr. LIEBELER. By you?
Dr. HARTOGS. By me, but then I have also to study the record which
takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that
counts about 2 hours.
Mr. LIEBELER. In your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the Youth
House did you have occasion at any time to interview Lee Harvey Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when that was and all that you can
remember about that interview in your own words.
Dr. HARTOGS. That is tough. I remember that--actually I reconstructed
this from what I remembered from the seminar. We gave a seminar on
this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge
of truancy from school, and yet when I examined him, I found him to
have definite traits of dangerousness. In other words, this child had
a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was
rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to Youth House on such a
mild charge as truancy from school.
This is the reason why I remember this particular child, and that is
the reason why we discussed him in the seminar.
I found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster,
pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. He had
to be prompted. He was polite. He answered in a somewhat monotonous
fashion. His sentences were well structured. He was in full contact
with reality.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was?
Dr. HARTOGS. He was in full contact with reality. I found his reasoning
to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his
own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with
people. This was mostly in the foreground. So this is what I remember
actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. You say that you have reconstructed your recollection
of your interview with Lee Oswald by thinking of the seminar that you
gave; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. The seminar; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any independent recollection of the interview
with Lee Oswald itself?
Dr. HARTOGS. Only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he
was and what I said at that time, I was able to reconstruct the picture
of the boy as I just described it; yes. That is how I proceeded.
Mr. LIEBELER. Tell us about the seminar, Doctor. How did it come that
you gave this seminar on Oswald, to whom was it given, what was the
general subject matter of the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; every Monday afternoon, at 1:30 until 3 o'clock, the
professional Youth House staff gets together in order to discuss an
interesting or unusual child. At that time we selected Oswald because
of the reason which I indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and
the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was
opened by the Youth House director; then the social worker talked about
the development, background and early history of the child; then the
Youth House recreation department and household talked, and then the
school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his
findings, and then I acquainted the people who were present with the
findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which I made to the
court.
Mr. LIEBELER. Whose suggestion was it that Oswald be used as a subject
matter for the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. I believe it was mine, because I was the one to select
these children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar
prepared?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; it is all spontaneous.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing?
Dr. HARTOGS. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. No one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time?
Dr. HARTOGS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any records relating to the seminar?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; there are never any records, never anything written
down; it is purely informal.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only writings that would have been at the seminar
would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you
and by the other members of the Youth House staff; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall what recommendation you made to the court
in respect of Oswald?
Dr. HARTOGS. If I can recall correctly, I recommended that this
youngster should be committed to an institution.
Mr. LIEBELER. What type of institution, do you recall?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; that I don't recall. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are quite clear in your recollection that you
recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the
personality pattern disturbance; is that correct?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right. That I remember; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did Oswald stay at the Youth House, do you know?
Dr. HARTOGS. Not exactly. Not exactly. Anything from 4 to 8 weeks, that
is the average stay.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is a place the basic function of which is
observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say?
Dr. HARTOGS. Controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric
observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance,
or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, I mean his
actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a
training school. These are the three purposes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Youth House is not the kind of place where a boy
would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something
like that?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, the average is about 2 to 3 months; I mean 3 months is
maximum.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you recall what kind of institution you recommended
that Oswald be committed to?
Dr. HARTOGS. I never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific
institution. This is a prerogative of the court.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you make a recommendation as to the type of
institution to which you recommend a child?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; I do that, either a mental hospital or training
school or residential treatment center, but I do not recall in this
case what I recommended.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend,
because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that he should not be placed in the community.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or placed on probation?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall being interviewed on this question by the
FBI?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when they interviewed you?
Dr. HARTOGS. No; I don't know the date.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that you told them the same thing, that
is, that you recommended institutionalizing Oswald as a result of
his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially
dangerous?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us how you first became aware, after
the assassination, that Lee Oswald was a child with whom you had had
previous contact?
Dr. HARTOGS. The first time was, I read it in the newspaper, Justice
Kelley, you know, Florence Kelley, made a statement to the press that
Oswald had been in the Youth House, and she revealed details of the
psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that I
was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the wording?
Dr. HARTOGS. For instance, incipient schizophrenia, I think she used;
potentially dangerous is something which I use. These are some of the
expressions.
Mr. LIEBELER. These expressions are peculiar to your particular type of
work?
Dr. HARTOGS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And not generally used by others?
Dr. HARTOGS. And by me generally in dealing with children.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that
indicated this?
Dr. HARTOGS. No, no.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you learned or became aware that
Oswald was a child with whom you had had contact?
Dr. HARTOGS. I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything, but the New
York Times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether I was the
one to examine this child, because they read it, and I said that I did
not know for sure, but it is possible.
And what happened then? Then very soon the FBI came in here and said,
"You are the doctor who examined Oswald," and from then on I know for
sure that it was me, because they must have read a report.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, up until the time that the FBI came and said that
you were the doctor who interviewed Oswald, did you still have some
doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy?
Dr. HARTOGS. I was not convinced, I was not sure, until I then
reconstructed everything in my mind.