The testimony of Edward John Pic, Jr., was taken on April 7, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Edward John Pic, Jr., No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista, New Orleans, La.,
after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Edward John Pic, Jr., is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. What is your address, sir?
Mr. PIC. No. 6 Jay Street, Lake Vista.
Mr. JENNER. Is that J-A-Y?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is Lake Vista a suburb of New Orleans?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it's on the Lake Pontchartrain frontage.
Mr. JENNER. Are you aware of the existence of the Warren Commission,
Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Well, I knew, you know, an investigation was started.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Pic, the Warren Commission was authorized by Senate
Joint Resolution No. 137. That legislation authorized the President of
the United States to appoint a Commission to investigate all the facts
and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of
November 22, 1963, which was the assassination of our President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mr. PIC. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. Thereafter President Johnson, under Executive Order No.
11130 did appoint that particular Commission, of which His Honor, the
Chief Justice of the United States, Earl Warren, is Chairman. That
Executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the Commission,
upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances
surrounding the tragic event of November 22, 1963, and also the
subsequent death and course of conduct of Lee Harvey Oswald and of Jack
Ruby.
The Commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our
duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the Commission
itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody
who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in
any capacity. Do you understand what we are doing now?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I must confess candidly that up until yesterday I was
under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew
where you were, and then a witness whom I examined yesterday told me,
to my surprise, that you were very much alive?
Mr. PIC. I certainly am.
Mr. JENNER. You have been seen occasionally by this witness on the
street. He said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he
recognized you. Now, had I known that before, I would have transmitted
to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the
Commission, Mr. Rankin, in which you would have been advised of the
Commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also
received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of Senate Joint Resolution
137 authorizing the creation of the Commission to investigate the
assassination of President Kennedy; a copy of the Executive Order No.
11130, of President Johnson appointing the Commission and fixing its
powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which
we take testimony before the Commission itself, and also by way of
deposition, as we are doing here today.
Mr. PIC. May I say something?
Mr. JENNER. Surely; anything.
Mr. PIC. I think it was some time after Christmas, possibly January,
that an agent of the FBI came to see me, and he knew whether I was
still alive.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance.
Mr. PIC. He just wanted to know if I knew anything about it, and I told
him I didn't; and that was all.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't go into it any further than that?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or
misinformation. Who was it that said--was it Will Rogers, that said the
reports of his death were very much exaggerated?
So I called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured
that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, I asked the Secret
Service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mr. Pic, you are a native of this section of the
country, are you not?
Mr. PIC. I was born and raised in New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. Born and raised here?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your wife the same way?
Mr. PIC. Yes; my present wife; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were married at one time to Marguerite Oswald, or
rather, to Marguerite Claverie, who later married Oswald; is that
right, Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that took place when?
Mr. PIC. 1929.
Mr. JENNER. You were both very young people?
Mr. PIC. Right. I was born in August of 1907.
Mr. JENNER. You were married how long? Just give me your best estimate.
Mr. PIC. I guess about 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. Three years?
Mr. PIC. Somewhere around that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually
terminated?
Mr. PIC. Well, yes; things happened, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it Mr. Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. About how long did you actually live together before you
separated?
Mr. PIC. Oh, about a year, I guess.
Mr. JENNER. So then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple
of years; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was your business or occupation when you were married
to Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. I was just classified as a clerk.
Mr. JENNER. In what company?
Mr. PIC. T. Smith & Son.
Mr. JENNER. Are you still with that company?
Mr. PIC. I am, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I suppose the nature of your work with the company has
changed; is that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it has, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What do you do now?
Mr. PIC. I am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department
of the company.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have managerial supervision in the company now, Mr.
Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes; I am operating manager of the company.
Mr. JENNER. You have major responsibilities with the company now; is
that right?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; right much. I have a big responsibility with the
company.
Mr. JENNER. Now, at a point in your marriage to the then Mrs. Pic, who
is now Mrs. Oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that
right?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Will you tell me about that please? Just tell me in your
own words what difficulty you had with her.
Mr. PIC. Well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it
come out to four.
Mr. JENNER. There was no outside influence?
Mr. PIC. No; none; definitely not.
Mr. JENNER. On either side?
Mr. PIC. No; there wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. You just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is
that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time?
Mr. PIC. That's right. We couldn't make it. We just couldn't get along,
you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing
off; which we did.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this. Was she a nice girl. Would you right now be
able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a
nice girl at that time?
Mr. PIC. Oh, definitely, yes. She was a nice girl. I couldn't say
anything about Marguerite at all. It was just one of those things. We
just couldn't get along. We had a lot of friends and everything, but
there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. Maybe I
had a rotten disposition, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you?
Mr. PIC. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have lived here in New Orleans all the intervening
years; haven't you?
Mr. PIC. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a child born of your marriage to Marguerite, Mr.
Pic?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that's John Edward Pic, is that correct?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another
"Jr.," or II or III?
Mr. PIC. I had nothing to do with that, sir. She named him.
Mr. JENNER. She gave him that name?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was the child born before or after the separation?
Mr. PIC. After the separation.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the
separation?
Mr. PIC. I was, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you discussed that with her, I presume?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was that a mutual agreement, to separate?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he
worked it out for us. We decided the best thing for us was to separate,
and we did.
Mr. JENNER. Then you supported her; did you?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The child John Edward Pic was born then during the period
of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware of the birth of the child?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then a divorce took place?
Mr. PIC. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. About how long after the birth of the boy?
Mr. PIC. Oh, I guess about a year and a half.
Mr. JENNER. About a year and a half?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was a decree entered?
Mr. PIC. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child
support to your son?
Mr. PIC. Well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was
concerned. That was an arrangement made between her, myself and the
attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony.
That was a mutual understanding. I agreed that I would give her as much
as I could out of the salary I would make.
Mr. JENNER. How long did you make payments in the form of alimony to
her?
Mr. PIC. From the time of the separation up to 1950, I paid it. I sent
monthly checks.
Mr. JENNER. In the same amount?
Mr. PIC. The same amount; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as
alimony?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have
all the furniture. I made no claim on anything. She took it all.
Mr. JENNER. And you have the distinct recollection that you paid her
the same amount each month up until 1950, is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What were those amounts, if you can recall?
Mr. PIC. Let's see--I am trying to remember if I sent that semimonthly
or monthly. I think I sent those checks semimonthly. I sent her $20
semimonthly, which was $40 a month I sent her.
Mr. JENNER. You sent her $40 a month until 1950?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then even though she remarried you still sent her $40 a
month, is that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You knew she had remarried?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you remarry?
Mr. PIC. I remarried in 1939.
Mr. JENNER. And is that your present wife?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was her maiden name?
Mr. PIC. Marjorie.
Mr. JENNER. What was her given name?
Mr. PIC. Boensel. She had previously been married.
Mr. JENNER. Was she a widow?
Mr. PIC. When we got married, yes; she was a widow. Her husband had
died.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had any children from that marriage?
Mr. PIC. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Girl or boy?
Mr. PIC. Girl.
Mr. JENNER. What is her name?
Mr. PIC. Martha.
Mr. JENNER. How old is she?
Mr. PIC. 17 this July.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me this: Did you know from time to time where
Marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. How? Did she communicate with you?
Mr. PIC. Well, up to the time she moved out of the city, I think I knew
where she lived, but I am trying to think where the next place she
moved to when she moved out of town. I think it was Fort Worth, Tex.,
or Brownsville; I just don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they
refresh your recollection.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. From 1939 to 1941 on Alvar Street in New Orleans?
Mr. PIC. Alvar; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember when she lived on Alvar?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then she lived for a while, about a year, at 1010
Bartholomew in New Orleans; do you remember that?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; since you mention it.
Mr. JENNER. Then in 1942 at 2136 Broadway, New Orleans; do you remember
that?
Mr. PIC. That's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember her being over in Algiers, 227 Atlantic
Avenue?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then about 1945 in Dallas, Tex., 4801 Victor?
Mr. PIC. I don't remember Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember Dallas?
Mr. PIC. No; she could have, but I don't remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember Benbrook, Tex., in 1946?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Covington, La., in 1946, in the summer of that year?
Mr. PIC. Covington, no; I don't remember sending checks there.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Fort Worth, Tex., 1947?
Mr. PIC. I do remember her being there; yes.
Mr. JENNER. 1505 Eighth Avenue?
Mr. PIC. Well, the address I don't know, but I know she lived in Fort
Worth about then.
Mr. JENNER. You do remember Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you definitely remember sending her $40 a month when she
was in Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was while she was in Fort Worth that the payments
were finally stopped, is that right?
Mr. PIC. Correct, sir; in 1950.
Mr. JENNER. In 1950?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved
around quite a bit, as we know?
Mr. PIC. Well, I would get a cashier's check from the Whitney National
Bank in New Orleans and sometimes the City Bank Branch, which our
company had an account in, and I could get it through without a lot of
red tape that way since I worked for the company and all. Now, those
addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where
she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the
check.
Now, in 1950 I was of course still sending support to my son, and
through withholding I was able to claim him as a dependent, but I knew
he was getting up in age, 17, 18 years, and I made inquiry whether
he was still going to school, or was working, because the Treasury
Department called me in and said I made a claim for my son when he
had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a
dependent, so I got in trouble with the Treasury Department over that,
because I didn't know he was working.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn in 1950 eventually that your boy was in the
Coast Guard?
Mr. PIC. Finally I did; yes. She sent me a picture of John, and to me
it looked like he was in the Navy, but I guess it was the Coast Guard.
So anyway after they told me he was working, I went to see my attorney
and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was
self-supporting, and inasmuch as I had remarried and she had remarried,
it wasn't necessary that I send her any more money, so I wrote her a
letter and told her that I had no further legal obligation as far as
the law was concerned, so I advised her that that would be the last
check I would be sending her, and I heard no more from her.
Mr. JENNER. Have you seen your son John?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about
the 1-year age, that I actually seen him.
Mr. JENNER. You did see him when he was about a year old?
Mr. PIC. Yes; up to about a year old.
Mr. JENNER. But from that time on to the present day, you have never
seen him?
Mr. PIC. No, I have never seen my boy since that time.
Mr. JENNER. When was the last time you saw Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. Oh, that's been a long, long time.
Mr. JENNER. Could that have been as long a period as 37 years that you
haven't seen Marguerite?
Mr. PIC. Well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that.
Mr. JENNER. 37 years?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you never knew Lee at all; you never saw him, did you?
Mr. PIC. No.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did
you?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; I knew she had two children now, but what their names
were, I didn't know that. Now, a few days after the assassination,
which I hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but I
didn't think even then that she was the Oswald mixed up in this, and
her son, and all.
I said to my wife, "Honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said,
"Yes, I figured who it was all the time, but I didn't want to mention
it to you and bring all that up." I didn't realize that it was her boy
at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know her husband, Lee Oswald?
Mr. PIC. No; I never met him.
Mr. JENNER. You never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is
that right?
Mr. PIC. That's right; I never did even hear of him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know a man by the name of Ekdahl?
Mr. PIC. No; not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know she was married to him at one time?
Mr. PIC. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him up to that moment?
Mr. PIC. No; not till I read about him in the paper--that she had
another marriage and it broke up, I believe, or something. It was in
the paper.
Mr. JENNER. And your boy John didn't communicate with you at that time?
Mr. PIC. Never has; no, sir. I never got any word from John. I guess
he forgot about me. He was too young to realize, and maybe his mother
never did tell him about his old man.
Mr. JENNER. Well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even
know if he knows you are alive, do you?
Mr. PIC. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. You never can tell about those things?
Mr. PIC. No; you never know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, Mr. Pic, I appreciate your coming in today. I know it
has been some inconvenience to you. I have no further questions.
Mr. PIC. Well, like I say, I never did know about her marriage to Mr.
Oswald, other than I had known that she remarried, and his name was
mentioned to me.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that. Now, Mr. Pic, you have the right, if
you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may
waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the
deposition and it will be sent by the U.S. attorney to Washington. Now
what do you prefer to do? Do you want to read and sign it, or do you
want to waive that?
Mr. PIC. Oh, I will waive it. I mean, the information I have is all I
can give you. My wife and I have known that we faced this ever since
the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want
a lot of publicity or anything, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have
testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news
media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and
telling us what you know about it.