Miss MURRET. From Kentucky and Tennessee, from Kentucky to Tennessee
she goes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So she lives in Frankfort, Ky., and at times she goes
over to Tennessee and lives with her children? How many children does
she have?
Miss MURRET. Three--no, four. That is Winfry, is her name.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is the name of the other of your mother's sisters?
Miss MURRET. It was Marguerite, Mancy, my mother, and Pearl was the
other one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Pearl, who is deceased?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Has she children living?
Miss MURRET. Yes; two.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is Pearl's last name?
Miss MURRET. Whittaker. But he is dead also, the husband.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were her children boys or girls?
Miss MURRET. Two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know where they live now?
Miss MURRET. Emile Whittaker lives in Jefferson Parish somewhere, but
I don't remember the street, and Jack Whittaker, I don't know where he
lives.
Mr. LIEBELER. What was the second one?
Miss MURRET. That one was Jack--she had two boys.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where does Jack live? Do you know, offhand?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. The first boy's name was Emile?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going back now to Mancy Winfry, you said she had four
children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are they boys and girls?
Miss MURRET. Three girls and one boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know their names and where they are living?
Miss MURRET. Andrew Winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but I am
not sure whether it is in Tennessee or Kentucky.
Mr. LIEBELER. You would think in Tennessee somewhere?
Miss MURRET. Yes; or maybe the university--might be Kentucky. I don't
know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the names of the three girls and where they
live?
Miss MURRET. Anne is one, and I think that she lives in Frankfort, and
Nanny, but I don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is
just a nickname, and then Jackie.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Jackie?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do Nanny and Jackie live? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Either in Tennessee or Kentucky. Anne lives--I don't know,
either in Tennessee or Kentucky also. But, anyway, two of the daughters
live in the same State, and one in the other.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many brothers and sisters do you have?
Miss MURRET. Three brothers and one sister.
Mr. LIEBELER. Three brothers and one sister?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What are your brothers' names?
Miss MURRET. Charles, Eugene, John; and my sister is Joyce.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is your sister Joyce older than you?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. She is older?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, Charles Murret is a dentist here in
the city of New Orleans? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Eugene Murret is studying at the Catholic seminary?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. The seminary is in Mobile, Ala.?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. John Murret does what?
Miss MURRET. He works for the Squibbs Pharmaceutical Co.
Mr. LIEBELER. Here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is Joyce married?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is her last name?
Miss MURRET. O'Brien.
Mr. LIEBELER. And she lives in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. No; in Beaumont, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and
their names were what?
Miss MURRET. One was John.
Mr. LIEBELER. John?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the other?
Miss MURRET. I think Charles. I didn't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do they have children living of which you know?
Miss MURRET. No; they died when they were very young--1918 and 1919,
during World War I.
Mr. LIEBELER. They do not have any children surviving them?
Miss MURRET. No; there were none.
Mr. LIEBELER. As I understand it, your mother's sister, Marguerite, has
three sons?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Lee Harvey Oswald, Robert Oswald, and John Pic?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What contact have you had personally with Marguerite
Oswald over the years?
Miss MURRET. Well, when I was younger, she and mother were always on
the outs. I remember her then, and then she would move away and come
back and occasionally she would stay with us. The last time she moved
back to New Orleans was when she lived on--she would stay 1 or 2 days
or so----
Mr. LIEBELER. And this last time was when?
Miss MURRET. She had been away, and then I hadn't see her, but when she
was on Exchange Alley, I think she visited one day. But when they were
on Exchange, living on Exchange Alley, of course, I used to see her
occasionally. I mean when she would come over and visit, but then she
moved to Texas, and I hadn't seen her for ages.
Mr. LIEBELER. So then you haven't seen her since she lived here in New
Orleans on Exchange Alley, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately when it was that she lived
on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I don't really remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the address where she lived on Exchange
Alley?
Miss MURRET. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of where Mrs. Oswald had
been prior to the time that she moved back to New Orleans and lived on
Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. I think they were in Texas, but I don't think we heard
from them when she was somewhere else.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any occasion to meet Lee Harvey Oswald when
you saw Marguerite, during the time that she lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. Well, then he was going to Beauregard, so I would see him
occasionally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that Beauregard Junior High School?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you remember generally on what occasions you would
meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MURRET. He came over to the house several times to eat, but I
don't think he was over very much.
Mr. LIEBELER. About how old was he then? Do you remember?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--at that time I guess he would be getting out
of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school
when you were about 16, so he might have been around--I don't really
know, because I think he was 17 when he got in the service, and it
wasn't long after that, so he might have been about 15.
Mr. LIEBELER. Fifteen?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell
us?
Miss MURRET. July 14, 1928.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of Lee Oswald during the time
that you saw him, when his mother lived on Exchange Alley?
Miss MURRET. He was just like anybody else, I guess, but he was very
reserved. He was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself.
His reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests
with the other children. I mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature,
and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, I guess. I
don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you talk to him about these things, or how did you
learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park?
Miss MURRET. I remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a
fight with children at Beauregard; however, this is what my mother told
me, and I don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from
the North, and so they ridiculed him at the school. I don't know if it
was because of the way he was dressed or not, but I actually didn't
see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the
streetcar one day, I believe, and he sat next to some Negroes. Well,
when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these
boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front
teeth, I believe. But this I only know from my mother.
Well, it was after that, and then another time, and I don't know if
they were teasing him and they said, "Oh, Lee--" and when he turned
around, they hit him. It was just actually that--even though he was
in fights, I think that it wasn't always his fault because I don't
think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own
business. That much I know, but the incidents I only know from what my
mother said. So, at that time I think he made the statement also, that
it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "I don't
have the same interests as the other students." They didn't like him
because of his accent, and because he sat next to the Negroes, which
was one incident. But he was extremely quiet.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was it in connection with the discussion of these various
difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to
the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it,
interested in that sort of thing?
Miss MURRET. I don't think he told me that--my mother must have told
me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy,
or that is, when some of the students from Beauregard were on TV and
said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said,
actually, I mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she
remembered those particular incidents.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you and your mother have had discussions about this
after the assassination?
Miss MURRET. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the occasion for that discussion was that some of his
former----
Miss MURRET. He might have told me that he didn't have anything in
common with the other students--I don't remember this. This was a long
time ago, and she always had said that, but I may have said that before
also. I just don't remember. I know it was this time when she told me
that that was the reason for not associating with the other students,
and that they made fun of him.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this discussion came up when these former students
from Beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this TV station
and said that Lee Harvey Oswald had always been involved in fights when
he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent
and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might
expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that
opinion?
Miss MURRET. And from what I know--it is a long time ago--but he was
very quiet, and I know he didn't have many friends, I don't think, but
he was not the belligerent type. He just minded his own business, and,
of course, if he committed this act, I guess it was a perverted mind--I
don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children
never had. I mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely
well mannered. I mean he was not an agitator to where you would say
that any trouble started with him--I don't know. I mean from what I
know, he never was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember that Lee gave this impression back during
the days that you knew him? Do you have any firsthand knowledge of that
difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and
being well mannered?
Miss MURRET. As far as manners, yes. Definitely. And I mean with some
people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, I
suppose. I don't know, but that I do remember. And, as I said, he was
very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always
had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was
very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child.
He was adorable, and I mean if you walked in the street with him,
everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a
little over two, but if my mother took him to Canal Street, everybody
stopped to admire him. He was a very pretty child, and very happy, very
cute.
But, at Beauregard, I don't think there was anything different about
him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as I was
saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and,
well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of
those students, I should say.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any other ways in which Lee differed
from his associates or fellow students at that time?
Miss MURRET. No; at that time I don't think because--well, I think he
wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it
could have been other things. I just don't know. I mean he wanted to
play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this
is a long time ago, I am telling you, and I can't remember whether
my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very
appreciative, very thankful, you know. And I mean I guess he couldn't
do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. I mean
he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but
I mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--I
guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but I
mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what I mean.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this television program in which these
former fellow students of his at Beauregard indicated that he had been
involved in fights when he was at Beauregard. Do you remember what
station that program was on?
Miss MURRET. WDSU, I think, and the characters came on over and
photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking
the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person
my mother was. And, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so
everybody had something nice to say. But it could just have been the
other way around. It was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all
that the people had said, and they quoted it. It was very, you know----
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the name of any of the students?
Miss MURRET. Voebel, Ed Voebel, and he wears glasses, and I think he
said that he was friendly with Lee at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of any others?
Miss MURRET. Any other people?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that were on the television program?
Miss MURRET. Well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group
of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't
like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. But he was the only one
who spoke in any detail, and I think he was the only one who was very
friendly and got him to join the Civil Air Patrol, in which he was very
interested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this just a news program, or was it a feature program
run by a particular reporter or commentator?
Miss MURRET. A reporter.
Mr. LIEBELER. I beg your pardon?
Miss MURRET. Probably just a reporter had called these people in.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you don't remember the names of any of the men at
WDSU that might be familiar with this that were on the program when
these people were interviewed by someone, presumably?
Miss MURRET. My mother knows the names of the men, or the man, I
believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed
information.
Mr. LIEBELER. The reporter talked to you personally?
Miss MURRET. The first time my father talked, and they get you off
guard, of course, and I don't know what he told them. They asked him
if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that
he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they
wanted to take pictures and everything else. I asked them to leave,
which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and,
of course, we had no comments. The one from WDSU got very irate, so he
went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and
it was about a half an hour show, around 7 o'clock or so, and had all
the comments by the neighbors.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did any of the neighbors remember Lee Oswald?
Miss MURRET. The girl next door probably did because he had stayed
there a few days when he came in.
Mr. LIEBELER. He stayed at your house a few days? This was in 1963?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned that Lee had stayed with you when he was a
young boy until the time that he was about 2 years old. You were about
11 or 12 years old at that time?
Miss MURRET. Just about.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of Lee as a young child
other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very
pretty child, and that he was adorable----
Miss MURRET. He was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well,
he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling
child.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he gave no indication of any behavior problems?
Miss MURRET. No; he was darling.
Mr. LIEBELER. There wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all?
Miss MURRET. And very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if
he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. He was
just a very pleasant child.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances that led to Lee's living with
you at that time? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. Well, I think the mother had to work and we kept him.
Mr. LIEBELER. His father had died shortly, or, actually before he was
born?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember where Lee's mother worked during that
time?
Miss MURRET. I don't know--she worked for several department stores,
and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and I don't know if it was
Jean's Hosiery Shop.
Mr. LIEBELER. So it was hosiery shops or department stores?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, then Lee left your house. Where did he go after
that? Do you know?
Miss MURRET. I think that is when he went to Texas. I am not sure if
that is when she married Ekdahl, or if she married Ekdahl later.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or what?
Miss MURRET. Well, she married Ekdahl when he was very young.
Mr. LIEBELER. When Lee was very young?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recall whether or not Lee was ever in an
orphanage, an orphan home here in New Orleans?
Miss MURRET. I know the other two boys were, and we were trying to
figure out whether he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are not sure whether he ever was or not?
Miss MURRET. No; I am not.
Mr. LIEBELER. But up until the time that Lee left you and went
back either to his mother or to Texas, or wherever he went, your
recollection is perfectly clear that Lee was a normal, happy, bright
young boy? Is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mentioned this man Ekdahl, and can you tell us the
background on that, and you were probably around 13, 12 or 13 years
old, or perhaps even a little older, when Mrs. Oswald married Mr.
Ekdahl; is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember ever having met Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. I met him once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know the correct spelling of his name?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with
Mr. Ekdahl?
Miss MURRET. My circumstances?
Mr. LIEBELER. No; the circumstances?
Miss MURRET. He just stopped over there one day, and I think he and
my aunt had John Edward and Robert with him, and they were going to
military school.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this after they were married?
Miss MURRET. It might have been before--I don't know whether she got
married here, or she met him in Texas. I don't really know that. I do
know that I saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two
boys--he had the two boys with him, John and Robert, because, if I
remember, they were in uniform. I met him on the one occasion, and if
I can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in
uniform.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever hear of the circumstances under which
Mrs. Oswald married Ekdahl, or met him? What do you know about this
relationship?
Miss MURRET. Just nothing other than what my mother has said, that
actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man,
and I think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said,
"Well, why don't you marry him?" So, they got married. I think she was
quite hesitant about it, actually.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before Mrs. Oswald married Lee Harvey Oswald's father,
she was married to a man named Pic, is that correct?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever met him?
Miss MURRET. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know anything about that marriage?
Miss MURRET. Well, that again, only from what my mother has said,
that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very
difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just Marguerite
saying that. And she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she
got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if
she got pregnant.
So, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she
did. But when she got pregnant with John, he didn't--he said that he
would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway,
he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was
true. And he definitely did not want any children.
So when she got pregnant with John, she left because he didn't want
her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant,
so she left, or he left. He left her, or she left him--it might be the
other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always
threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. But I think that
when she got pregnant with John, she was probably carrying him, so she
left, or maybe he said he was leaving--I just don't know. Anyway, that
was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being
like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to
him or----
Mr. LIEBELER. Either your mother talked to Pic, or, in any event, your
mother learned that apparently it was true that Mr. Pic didn't want to
have any children?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mrs. Oswald, that is, Marguerite, met
Mr. Oswald before she was divorced from Pic or separated from Pic, or
afterwards?
Miss MURRET. Mr. Oswald?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes?
Miss MURRET. It was a long time after that they were married.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever meet or know Lee Harvey Oswald's father?
Miss MURRET. I saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any recollection of him, what he was like?
Miss MURRET. No; just as a person, you know, and I saw a picture later,
and I could visualize him perfectly. I was very young then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any other recollections of Lee Oswald as a
young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this
time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? Was the
next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into Exchange
Alley?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would
have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a 2-year
old? Or did he seem different? Just tell us what impression did you
have when you met him again?
Miss MURRET. I don't think I really compared him to the time when he
was a child, but he was a little different, as I said, from other
children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you think that he was a sensitive person?
Miss MURRET. No. What I actually thought was that he, I mean he just
had certain interests and I mean because he had been reared like
that, and probably--I think is what my mother said, and I don't know,
but my aunt had no alternative--I mean they probably did the wrong
thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the
circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into
trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way
around. But she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work,
and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen
to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other
boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--I am saying
if he did this--of warping his mind. But it just happened to turn out
that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would
never talk to any strangers, or anything. He was just reared like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. The last time you saw Marguerite, I think you testified
this was during the time that she lived here in New Orleans on Exchange
Alley, before she went to Texas?
Miss MURRET. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an impression of her?
Miss MURRET. Who? Marguerite?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Miss MURRET. When she came back you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; at any time, just what your general impression and
feeling about Marguerite Oswald was?
Miss MURRET. I think she is a woman of very good character, but she had
a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. I mean if you
have an argument with her, I don't think she forgets it immediately.
But she also, I guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and I
mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and
she was not a gossipy type of woman, and I don't know but I worked a
few summers in a department store, and I know that for these sales how
they--I mean they will slit one another's throats.
Mr. LIEBELER. The sales clerks?
Miss MURRET. Yes. I think that the employees were arguing--she didn't
engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments
over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued.