The testimony of Mrs. Lillian Murret was taken on April 6, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Lillian Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, La., after first
being sworn by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Murret, you received, did you not, a letter from Mr.
Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of
your deposition.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And there was enclosed with that letter, was there not,
three documents.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. One was Senate Joint Resolution No. 137, which is the
legislation authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission
to investigate the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, our
President; another was the Executive order of President Johnson
appointing the Commission and empowering it to proceed, the Executive
Order being No. 11130, and a copy of the rules and regulations for the
taking of testimony, adopted by the Commission itself. Did you receive
those?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, if you can remember, Mrs. Murret--and don't feel
offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads
and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out,
then it will be in the record. Do you understand that?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch
head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed
to interpret the intent of the witness. Do you understand that, Mrs.
Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. I understand.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I assume that you gathered from these documents
that the Commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the
facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of November 22,
1963, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal
staff of the Commission. It is our task to investigate the life of Lee
Harvey Oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the 24th
of November, which was on a Sunday, 1963, which gives our Commission
a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our
purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as
you who in any way touched the life of Lee Harvey Oswald or those with
whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. We
understand from the FBI reports and otherwise, from FBI interviews with
you, that you will be able to help us.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will if I can.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, just sit back and relax. There's nothing
going to happen to you. We just want to ask you what you know about
Oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your
knowledge.
Mrs. MURRET. Do you just want me to tell you what I know about his life?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as far as you know. I will just ask you questions, and
I believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your
knowledge. I wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water.
(Glass of water given to witness.)
Mrs. Murret, let me orient you for a moment. You are the sister of Lee
Harvey Oswald's mother, are you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I am.
Mr. JENNER. First, what was your maiden name, Mrs. Murret?
Mrs. MURRET. Claverie.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell that?
Mrs. MURRET. C-L-A-V-E-R-I-E.
Mrs. JENNER. And your first name is Lillian?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you born in New Orleans yourself?
Mrs. MURRET. New Orleans; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you have always lived in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were your brothers and sisters born here?
Mrs. MURRET. They were.
Mr. JENNER. In New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So that you all are native-born Americans; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; native to Louisiana--Cajuns.
Mr. JENNER. Cajun and American?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Then all of the family are native-born Americans; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not my grandparents.
Mr. JENNER. Not your grandparents?
Mrs. MURRET. No. On my father's side were from France, and my
grandparents on my mother's side were from Germany.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Mrs. Murret, once in a while I may have to ask you a
question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it
is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my
first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is?
Mrs. MURRET. What my age is?
Mr. JENNER. How old are you?
Mrs. MURRET. I will be 64 in May, May 17.
Mr. JENNER. And how old is Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. I think she should be 57.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite, I should say, is the sister of Mrs. Murret.
Now, I would like to have you tell me something about her, how many
times she was married, to whom, in chronological order.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I will tell you all I know about her. I have known
her all her life, you know. She was first married to Edward John Pic.
Mr. JENNER. Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Is that P-I-C?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I think we have that as John Edward Pic. Is there an
explanation for that, do you think?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I think they just reversed the name around because
the child is John Edward, but I think the father's name was Edward
John, because I think they always called him Eddie. Now, I don't know
which way it is.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you happen to recall when that marriage took
place?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything
like that, when the marriage took place. I know about how long they
were married. I think they were married about 2 years, but I'm not
really too accurate as to years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, as closely as you can come to it.
Mrs. MURRET. I know what happened, but the dates I just don't recall
exactly, because I had my own affairs to take care of, so I can't
remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to Eddie for 2
years, we'll say----
Mr. JENNER. Let me interrupt you for a minute. Tell me something about
that marriage. Who was he? Did the marriage, take place here? Were you
present? What do you know about that marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know too much about the marriage. I don't think it
took place here. I just don't know anything about that. It might have
taken place over on the Gulf Coast. I don't know if I am right on that
or not. That has been so long ago, but Marguerite did know Eddie a very
long time.
Mr. JENNER. She had known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you known him for some time before she married him?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What was his business or occupation?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, Eddie worked for Smith. I think they are stevedores.
Mr. JENNER. What did he do as a stevedore?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know what type of work he did. I think it
was clerical work. I think he is still with the same people.
Mr. JENNER. He is alive?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. I think it's T. B. Smith, or something like that.
I don't know what the initials stand for.
Mr. JENNER. T. as in Thomas?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And B. as in Benny?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Smith?
Mrs. MURRET. Smith, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you think Edward John Pic is still employed by them?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as I know.
The reason I know he is is because Mr. Murret, who works on the river,
saw him out there, but it was from a distance.
Mr. JENNER. Your husband works on the riverfront, does he?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were you married to your husband before or after Marguerite
married Edward John Pic?
Mrs. MURRET. I was already married.
Mr. JENNER. You were already married then?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband does have an acquaintance with Edward John
Pic, does he?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no. He just maybe occasionally will see him from a
distance, but he has never spoken with him. In fact, I don't think I
would know Eddie Pic if I saw him on the street. That has been so long
ago. I don't think I would recognize him myself. Eddie Pic was a very
peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless
you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or
something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say
anything. Now, I don't know whether all of this is important. I don't
guess some of it is.
Mr. JENNER. Don't you worry about whether you think it is important or
not, Mrs. Murret. We will decide that once we get all this information
assembled. You just tell me what you know about all of this, anything
that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the
Commission in this investigation.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, at the beginning when she married Eddie, she said
he wasn't fair. He told Marguerite that he was making more money than
he was over there, and she had to go back to work. She worked for
Mr. Sere. He was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and
Marguerite worked for him. It was the firm of Goldberg, Kammer and
somebody else--lawyers.
Mr. JENNER. Was Sere a lawyer?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; they were all lawyers. They were three lawyers
together. He was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer
too.
Mr. JENNER. How do you spell his name?
Mrs. MURRET. Mr. Sere?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. S-E-R-E.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Sere still alive?
Mrs. MURRET. He is not.
Mr. JENNER. He is dead?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Just go ahead now with what you know about
Marguerite's first marriage.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, the way I understood it, and this is only what she
told me now, I know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said
Eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place,
and that it was a very small salary that he made. He went out and
rented a house in the City Park section, which was very high rent, and
then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that
Eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at
that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that
rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they
took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and
so forth while she was working.
Mr. JENNER. How old was she then?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, let's see--John must be about 31 years old now.
Mr. JENNER. You mean her son John?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They were married, I think, about maybe 4 years
before John was born. I don't know the dates or the times or anything,
but you can figure that she is 57 now, and John is 31.
Mr. JENNER. Well, she would have been 26 when he was born, would that
be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. Twenty-six--I don't think she was that old; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, 31 from 57 is 26.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. Well, she could have been, but I didn't think she
was that old. I thought maybe she might have been around 23 years old.
Let's see--well, John wasn't born until 4 years after she was married,
you see.
Mr. JENNER. Oh--well, that would be 26 less 4, so that would be 22
years.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think she was 22 about then, 22 or 23, somewhere in
there. I didn't think she was 26 yet.
Mr. JENNER. So we can say that she was married when she was about 22
years old; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think that's about right.
Mr. JENNER. What was her formal education?
Mrs. MURRET. She had a high school education.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; McDonogh High School. She lived with Mr. Pic, say
about 2 years, and then they moved into another location.
Mr. JENNER. They first were in this apartment in the City Park area?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was during the time that she left Mr. Pic,
previous to that.
Mr. JENNER. Let's start back. You said something about his having lied
to her as to his income, did you not?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Then I believe you said he rented an apartment in the City
Park area; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And she found when they went out there, or whatever
occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was
making; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And so she went back to work.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't
she?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. They lived in the City Park area how long?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't know how long they lived there. I really don't,
but I was thinking of another time when she lived in the City Park
area. That was when I was referring to.
Mr. JENNER. We can come to that later. Let's just keep this in
sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section.
I have forgotten which section that was.
Mr. JENNER. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became
pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. Was that when they had the house?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that
they rented. It was in the lower section. I forget what section it
was, probably somewhere up in the Carrollton section.
Mr. JENNER. Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant,
and I remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was
pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that Eddie refused to support
her. She said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact
that she was pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't want any children?
Mrs. MURRET. He didn't want any children, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. This would have been when they were married approximately 3
years; would that be about right?
Mrs. MURRET. About 3 years married, yes, sir; about that.
Mr. JENNER. Were you and Marguerite generally, fairly close?
Mrs. MURRET. We were very close.
Mr. JENNER. Very close?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. When my mother died, she left six children, and
we were all young. My brother was the eldest, and I came next, and
Marguerite was about 3 or 4 years old at that time, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe at this point we should get the names of all your
brothers and sisters. Your father died when?
Mrs. MURRET. My father?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, he died about 33 years ago.
Mr. JENNER. Thirty-three years ago?
Mrs. MURRET. About that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be approximately 1932; is that about right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Leaving your mother and you children, is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when did your mother die?
Mrs. MURRET. My mother died about 1911.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, she preceded your father?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. So when your father died, you children were then orphans;
is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At that time, when your father died, you were around 34
years of age?
Mrs. MURRET. I was married when my father died. I had three children
when my father died. One child was a baby.
Mr. JENNER. Now, could I have the names of just your family, that is
yourself, your sisters, and your brothers?
Mrs. MURRET. I have two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. Two brothers?
Mrs. MURRET. And we were four sisters.
Mr. JENNER. All right, now give me the brothers' names.
Mrs. MURRET. Their names are Charles and John.
Mr. JENNER. Charles Claverie and John Claverie?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Are they alive?
Mrs. MURRET. No; they died while at a very young age. They died 5
months apart.
Mr. JENNER. Were they teenagers?
Mrs. MURRET. No. One boy was around possibly 23 years old, and the
other one was about around 18 years old. The elder one contracted
tuberculosis. That was during World War I. He was in the Navy.
Mr. JENNER. Was that Charles or John?
Mrs. MURRET. Charles, and then John died; he also had TB.
Mr. JENNER. And he died at age 18?
Mrs. MURRET. Around that; yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you had four sisters, you say?
Mrs. MURRET. Including myself.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; including yourself.
Mrs. MURRET. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. All right. One sister was Marguerite.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And yourself, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Who else?
Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. Is that A-M-I-N-T-H-E?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that pronounced Aminthe?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. That sounds French, is it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; it's French.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what's the other sister's name?
Mrs. MURRET. Pearl. She died.
Mr. JENNER. Pearl is dead?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where is Aminthe living at the present time?
Mrs. MURRET. Aminthe is living in Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER. Knoxville, Tenn.?
Mrs. MURRET. Tennessee, yes.
Mr. JENNER. I take it Charles was the oldest?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and I was next.
Mr. JENNER. You were next?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; John was next.
Mr. JENNER. John was next?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; and then Pearl and then Marguerite, and then Aminthe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let me get those down by number. Number one was
Charles, number two, that would be you, Lillian.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. John was third.
Mrs. MURRET. John was third, that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite was fourth?
Mrs. MURRET. Fourth, and Aminthe was fifth.
Mr. JENNER. How about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, let's see--that's wrong. Aminthe was sixth.
Mr. JENNER. And Pearl was fifth?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; Pearl was fifth. No; that's still wrong. Aminthe was
sixth. Marguerite was fifth, and Pearl was fourth.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I've got it. I will recite it now just
so that we will have it straight in the record. There was Charles,
Lillian, then John, then Pearl, then Marguerite, and then Aminthe; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How old was Pearl when she died?
Mrs. MURRET. She died recently. She was about 54.
Mr. JENNER. She was in her fifties?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did she die of natural causes?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. What was the occupation of your father?
Mrs. MURRET. My father was a motorman for New Orleans Public Service.
He worked for them approximately around 40 years.
Mr. JENNER. When you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. They had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken
out the first mule car, I think--when they had mule cars, before they
had the handbrakes on the cars.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, did any of you children have a formal
education, beyond high school?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you all attend and finish high school, other than John
who died when he was 18?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did John finish high school?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Charles?
Mrs. MURRET. No. Charles went in the Navy during the wartime. He made
about, oh, I don't know how many trips through Germany, and he was on
this transport when the United States seized the "Frederick Digross,"
and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and I loaned it out to
someone, and I never did get it back.
Mr. JENNER. How unfortunate.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I never did get it back. It was really everything
that happened on the trip coming and going from New York to Germany,
you know, back and forth. He was a gunner.
Mr. JENNER. On the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser?
Mrs. MURRET. On the transport.
Mr. JENNER. He was a gunner on a transport?
Mrs. MURRET. Transport; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, Marguerite is alive and you are alive and Aminthe is
alive; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Aminthe is alive too.
Mr. JENNER. Did you complete high school?
Mrs. MURRET. I did not. I didn't even go to high school.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did you complete elementary school?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. What about Pearl?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't think she went to high school. If she did, it was
probably just a year or so. She was married at an early age.
Mr. JENNER. I think you said that Marguerite did complete high school,
or did she?
Mrs. MURRET. I can't remember if she completed high school or not, but
she may have. I really don't remember that. If she said she did, then
she did. I can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and
my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some
cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, I
being the eldest, I was pretty busy with everything in those days. We
were just trying to keep the family together more or less.
You see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth,
and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when I got
old enough I took over, and when the others got old enough they would
help out, and that went on and on. We did pretty well. We were a happy
family. We were singing all the time, and I often say that we were much
happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. My
father was a very good man. He didn't drink, and he was all for his
family. He didn't make much salary, but we got along all right.
Mr. JENNER. The reason I am inquiring into these things is that all of
this will assist the Commission in getting the background of the family
and relatives of Lee Harvey Oswald. The reason I am saying that is I
don't want you to think I am just being curious.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I understand.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out the family background so that we
can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with Lee Harvey
Oswald. You understand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes. It's nothing I'm ashamed of. I'm glad I had the life
I did, because I have something to look back to, because we were very
happy. We didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but
we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right.
Mr. JENNER. I understand. Now, was Marguerite happy, or would you
say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her
attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? Just tell me about her
personality.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think she was resentful in any way. She was a
very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at
all like she used to, you know. You wouldn't recognize her.
Mr. JENNER. I think she's nice looking.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, not like she was years ago. She was a very pretty
girl, and I don't think that she was resentful of anybody.
Mr. JENNER. There seems to be some inability on her part to get along
with people. That's really what I am driving at. What do you know about
that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I found that I didn't get along with her myself all
the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course
she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an
opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were
wrong.
Mr. JENNER. How do you and Marguerite get along now?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't
say nothing. You see, I am forgiving, but she is not.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about that. Tell me about when you were girls,
and how you got along then.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, when we were girls, we got along.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have to give in in order to get along with
her, anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. I guess I was too busy taking care of five children to
think about anything like that. I mean, I didn't realize anything like
that. We did get along pretty well.
Mr. JENNER. Now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you
had your own families. Let's start with during the time of her marriage
to Edward John Pic. Did your relations remain fully cordial, or did
you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield,
whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite
her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't think I had to be careful with what I said.
Maybe if I thought she wasn't right, I would tell her she wasn't right.
I never did feel I had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know,
just to keep peace or something like that. If I thought she was wrong,
I would just tell her why she was wrong, why I thought she was wrong,
because there were things where we just didn't think alike.
Mr. JENNER. You did not?
Mrs. MURRET. No; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought I was
wrong.
Mr. JENNER. She thought you were wrong?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she did, so then I would, you know, forget about
it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about
anything. She would just, you know, fly off.
Mr. JENNER. You would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This propensity on her part not to forget, was that a
source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding
controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, no.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, coming to later years, was there any
change? Did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything
that you can recall of that nature?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or
whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just
go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from
her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she
probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to
New Orleans and for us to put her up and everything. I never did hold
anything in, you know what I mean, things like that.
Mr. JENNER. The remainder of your family, your other brothers and
sisters, I think they remained in and about the New Orleans area; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, they did for a while.
Mr. JENNER. Well, they all remained in and about New Orleans except for
your sister Aminthe; isn't that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she moved. She married and moved to Knoxville.
Mr. JENNER. But the rest of your family stayed here in the New Orleans
area?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, my brother stayed. They were very young, and of
course long before I was married, they died, so there wasn't really
anyone left, you know, except Marguerite and I. She lived with me when
I first got married, she stayed with me then.
Mr. JENNER. Marguerite lived with you during your marriage?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed
together.
Mr. JENNER. You and your husband and your father and your sister
Marguerite stayed together?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; we lived on Esplanade and Roman.
Mr. JENNER. What is the business or occupation of your husband?
Mrs. MURRET. What is his occupation?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mrs. MURRET. He's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies,
but mostly for Mr. Jackson. He works at different wharves, in other
words.
Mr. JENNER. Different what?
Mrs. MURRET. At different wharves on the riverfront. You see, he
doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf.
He transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have
work, he will work for someone else.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what else you know about John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET. What else?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, about Edward John Pic.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, about all I know about him is what she told me.
She said John wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she
was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. It was a payday, I
think, when she told me that, and I spoke to John, but John didn't give
me any satisfaction whatever. He didn't say a thing, why or anything,
what was the reason or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss with him his refusal to support Marguerite?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she left John.
Mr. JENNER. Did she leave him?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes. You see, she was that way, very quick. She would
do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would
think it over before acting. I always think over things to give it a
chance to cool off before I do something, but not Marguerite. When she
left him she didn't get a divorce. She just separated. He got half of
the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Before they were divorced?
Mrs. MURRET. Before they were divorced; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now if I may return a minute, you said she was very quick.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that a little?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; if I can.
Mr. JENNER. I am trying to find out as much as I can about her
personality. Now, when you said she was quick, do I get an inference
from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she
would act without thinking things over?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would do that. She was quick in making up her
mind about anything that happened. She made her decisions very fast
without sleeping on them, not like me. I always try to sleep over a
problem if I have to make a decision, because a lot of times I will
have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not Marguerite.
She would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she
made up her mind. That's what I mean. In other words, when she would
find something that she just didn't like, that was it. She made quick
decisions.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl
as well as a mature lady?
Mrs. MURRET. I don't remember anything like that before she was
married, I mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no.
Mr. JENNER. It was after she left the home then, would you say, that
she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick
acting in her personality?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. JENNER. And you think she failed to think things over, that she
didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes
ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she
needed to reach a decision, is that it?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. She failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that
right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she was too quick. I would have thought things over
before I did them, but she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, she was impulsive? Would you call it that?
Mrs. MURRET. You can call it that if you like.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am just trying to shape this up into what you
really knew about Marguerite and about her personality behavior. I
don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that I show a
tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen I want
you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I want you to put it in your own words. Do you understand?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate now a little more on this personality
characteristic that we have discussed? I am interested in that.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she went to live in Carrollton, which is in the City
Park section, in Carrollton.
Mr. JENNER. Would you spell that for me, please?
Mrs. MURRET. C-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. Carrollton?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs
from yours.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; my southern drawl.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I wouldn't call it a southern drawl. You have a
distinct Louisiana accent. It's different. The Louisiana accent is not
a lazy sort of thing. It has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation
which you don't find, say, in Mississippi and some parts of Louisiana.
I just came from Dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's
as long as your arm.
I happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, I mean,
with a sharp enunciation.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, during that time she was suing Eddie for a divorce.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was she working at that time?
Mrs. MURRET. No; she was not working then.
Mr. JENNER. How was she being supported?
Mrs. MURRET. Eddie was supporting her.
Mr. JENNER. Even though they were separated, he was supporting her?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I don't know now if he was supporting her by that
time or not, but I know during the course of the divorce he had to
pay Marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he
contributed a very good amount to John Edward, which he received until
he was 18 years old.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, I suppose.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; of course, during that time, when John was about 2
years old, she married Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that in a minute.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that this experience with Edward
Pic embittered her?
Mrs. MURRET. I really couldn't say. I don't think so, though. She
seemed to be pretty happy with Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Before we get to Oswald now, did she complain or did she
show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting
along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving John?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, she was getting along on what she was getting from
him for herself and John, I think, and she would come over to our home.
We lived on Dumaine Street at that time, but very near there, and I
would give her all the help I could, and they would come over to dinner
and things, but then I remember one time when John was sick, when he
was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for Eddie. She said
she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come
over and stay a while, and he did.
Well, I think they had it out at that time. I don't know about that,
but anyway, I think that was about the only time that Eddie saw John,
was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an
infant. She wouldn't let John see Eddie. For myself, I thought that was
cruel, because I don't believe in that.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am interested in that, Mrs. Murret. You say she
refused to permit her former husband to see the child?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, now I don't know whether he even asked to see the
child or not. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you did say without prompting from me that she
wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right, she wouldn't.
Mr. JENNER. I draw the inference from that to mean that he might have
desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't
know that?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know if he asked to see the child or not.
Mr. JENNER. But you do have a recollection that she would not let Eddie
see the child; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. John never saw him after that, I don't
think, not after he was a child.
Mr. JENNER. But you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is
that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes; I imagine she was.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of
Marguerite's marriage to Oswald, anything else that you would say was
unusual insofar as personality is concerned?
Mrs. MURRET. No; not that I can think of.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned a couple of aspects already.
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't know of anything else. That would be about all
I know. When she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was
just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for
a divorce and went to live in Carrollton, and the divorce was granted,
and she got the child, and he supported John for 18 years. He sent him
a good amount. He never failed to make one payment, and of course she
got alimony for herself.
Of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize
and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a
lot wouldn't know how to do that.
Mr. JENNER. Of course I gather from what you have said--as a matter
of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise I would have been
surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a
motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were necessarily poor people.
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; he made $90 a month. We paid $12 a month house rent,
or $14 a month house rent--I forget which--and every day he would give
us each $1 to do the marketing with, and we would have something left
out of the $1, believe it or not.
My sister Pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to
the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress
by hand, with what she had left from the $1, because whatever was left
out of the $1 he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. We
could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he gave $1 to each of you each day?
Mrs. MURRET. $1 to feed the family; yes sir. We ate beans and rice and
spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't
have big household expenses, you see. We didn't have a gas stove. We
had a furnace and things like that. There were no electric lights. In
the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see,
were out.
I have no bitterness toward my life as a child. In fact, I like to talk
about it, because we were always so happy. We went skating. We had
skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around Jackson
Square and the French Quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us
take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we
would go over there and dance and play the piano, and I might say that
Marguerite was able to do different things. She was very entertaining.
She could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer,
but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father
bought for $5 she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had
a lot of fun.
We cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our
bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children
have to do today.
I find children today are under a great strain. Their parents want
their children to grow up long before their years. They don't let them
just take things in stride any more like they used to. Now, they go to
the Blue Room and places like that, and they apparently think that's
the thing to do.
Mr. JENNER. What's the Blue Room?
Mrs. MURRET. That's in the Roosevelt Hotel.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a place of entertainment?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling
and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and
all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all
the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to.
They have children in my block who never stop. They have poor people
around there, but they never seem to relax. They don't know how to
relax apparently. My own children, well, I'm glad they didn't live like
that either.
Mr. JENNER. All right now, when John Edward Pic was approximately 2
years old, your sister, Marguerite, married Mr. Oswald; is that right?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. Now, there's something else that happened
during that time. She told me this, and I don't know whether it's true
or not, but I guess it's true because I have never found my sister to
lie about anything.
Mr. JENNER. You never have?
Mrs. MURRET. No.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things
didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a
tendency to exaggerate or overstate something?
Mrs. MURRET. I would say, when you put it that way--I would say if she
expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do
that, well, then that was the wrong thing.
Mr. JENNER. When that happened, did she get excited about it or angry,
or show any emotional trait at all?
Mrs. MURRET. No; I don't think so. Now, maybe she may have appeared
excited. I don't know if she was excited or not. I just always felt
that she was really too quick. She would fly off too quick, and if you
didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain
to her, you would just be wrong. You just couldn't get along with her
if something would come up like that. Of course, it could be you who
was at fault, so I'm not saying that she was at fault every time or
anything like that. Maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason
with her if she thought she was right, and I don't think anybody can be
right all the time.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about that. You said she was unable to
get along with people. Now, I would like to know more about that, just
as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything
that you noticed about Marguerite in connection with any incidents like
that.
Mrs. MURRET. Well, I mean, if people don't do things right, maybe
it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no
control over or something, you see what I mean, but at other times
things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see
eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. You
couldn't explain things to her, I mean. If she thought differently,
then you were just wrong.
Mr. JENNER. And she was sufficiently vociferous about it?
Mrs. MURRET. She was very independent, in other words. She was very
independent. She didn't think she needed anyone at any time, I don't
think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how
much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was
actually helping her. So often I have helped her out, quite a lot of
times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one
little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would
have these little differences.
Mr. JENNER. You mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when
she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you
could do was just let things ride until she would come to New Orleans
again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if
accidentally I would meet her on the street or something, and I would
go ahead and give her help again.
Mr. JENNER. It would occur that when she would fly off the handle
sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while?
Mrs. MURRET. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is that about the pattern of what happened when these
incidents would arise?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were
the older sister and really head of the family?
Mrs. MURRET. Yes; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't
act that way?
Mrs. MURRET. Well, that was all in later years. That was after her
marriage and after my marriage, naturally. She might not like something
my children were doing and so forth, and I told her that I always
believed my children, whatever they told me. She asked me if I did
that, and I said yes; I did, and that I had reason to believe them. I
had faith in them, and I felt they would always do the right thing.
Mr. JENNER. She questioned that?
Mrs. MURRET. With me, yes; I mean, about the children.
Mr. JENNER. She questioned you to the extent that she thought it
was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your
children?
Mrs. MURRET. That's right. She told me at one time, and I can remember
this incident that happened if you want me to tell it.
Mr. JENNER. Go ahead and tell me about it.
Mrs. MURRET. The incident was just recently, I may say. My son John was
just married October 5.
Mr. JENNER. Of what year?
Mrs. MURRET. This year, 1963--this past year.
Mr. JENNER. Your son John?