The testimony of Mrs. Mildred Sawyer was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mrs. Mildred Sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of
President Kennedy. The Commission staff members have been authorized to
take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week and told you that
we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony.
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the
Executive order and the congressional resolution to which I have just
referred, and also a copy of the Commission's rules governing the
taking of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is correct. At the time that I spoke to your Mr.
Gerrets last night, I hadn't gone through some mail that was in my
place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up
the mail on that Saturday morning, and I hadn't even bothered going
through it, because most of the time the mail I have is just bills or
some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result,
after hearing that I was supposed to have a letter, I became a little
curious and looked, and I found that there was one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Good. Technically, witnesses are entitled to 3 days'
notice before being required to appear. I don't think you had quite 3
days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. As long as you
are here, I assume you will want to go ahead.
Mrs. SAWYER. Certainly. I will be very glad to, because I am afraid
there is very little I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think we will take very long, actually, but
one of the things the Commission is trying to do is develop as much
background knowledge about Lee Harvey Oswald as it possibly can, in the
hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in
fact he did assassinate the President.
Mrs. SAWYER. I see.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mrs. SAWYER. Mildred Sawyer.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where do you live?
Mrs. SAWYER. I live in Lakeview; 6306 Louisville Street; part of the
time with my father, and then I have a little place on Exchange Place
where I kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked,
more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when I
felt too pressed with work, or if I am tired and don't feel like going
to dad's, I stay there. My husband and I had the place arranged so,
whenever we wanted to, we could stay there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your husband is deceased? Is that correct?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you lived at the Exchange Place apartment?
Mrs. SAWYER. Oh, whenever the Monteleone Hotel took over the place
where we were living, which belonged to Mr. Saussaye, on Royal Street,
and he owned that building there, and the Monteleone Hotel--you
remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage
there? We had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some
little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an
engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in
and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have
someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it,
way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was
quite old--he is 91, in fact--so that is how we started looking around,
and we found this little place and took it, and I have been going back
and forth ever since.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been in the 1950's sometime?
Mrs. SAWYER. I am trying to recall the year, but really I can't without
looking at my receipts. It would be hard for me to remember that. My
husband died 2 years ago in November, and we were there at least 3
years or 4 years, I think. I am not certain of the time. I mean it is
kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. Anyway, whatever it
was, when we moved there these people, this Mrs. Oswald and her son,
were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and
they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and
I never heard any more or anything until then, and I had forgotten all
about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean you were interviewed by someone from the FBI
sometime back in November?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. There was an FBI man who called me sometime back, and
that is when I realized that they were the same people.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you become acquainted with Mrs. Oswald to any extent
during the time that you lived at this Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my
mother, I might say, and our working all the time--and so was my
husband--and then I was connected with the opera group here and I was
out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway
or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps.
About the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is
about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. And I say
"little boy" because to me he was a child when I saw him. I can vaguely
remember, or I have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly
hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all I can say, and once
in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time I
was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and
he seemed quite polite.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was about 14 years old?
Mrs. SAWYER. I would say he must have been about 14. I say he was a
little boy because I am sure he was an early teenager. Of course, as
I say, I have lost track of time then. I was wondering how old he
actually is or was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is the address of this place 126 Exchange Place?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is not in Exchange Alley?
Mrs. SAWYER. It is Exchange Place, and Exchange Place and Exchange
Alley are one and the same thing. Years ago they used to be called
Exchange Alley.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what Mrs. Oswald did for a living?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes. That much I do know, because I believe she was
working as a clerk in Kreeger's, but I am not positive. I have been
trying to think since I had to come here, and she left there, and I
believe she either went to Goldring's or Godchaux's--I don't remember
which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if I was
buying any clothes and would I not come by and buy from her so that she
might get the commission or show me something I might be interested in.
In fact, I never did go; I never did buy, though. I never did go to her
for anything.
Mr. LIEBELER. The only two people that lived in the apartment were Mrs.
Oswald and this boy? Is that right?
Mrs. SAWYER. That is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know how big an apartment it was?
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I imagine it consisted of about the same size or
same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room,
combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a
small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and
I am sure--seeing it, well, I would say the stretch of the building
going up the stairway, I would say that it was the same thing, or close
to it anyway. I am sure it had the same dimensions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember anything about Lee Oswald, the boy that
lived there? I think you told the FBI that he would always get home
before his mother and he was very quiet.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, I say I am not certain that he always got home
before his mother. I imagine he came home from school, because, as I
say, occasionally I met him going up and down the stairway or at the
door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and
undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because I am sure if he had
been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very
low voiced and----
Mr. LIEBELER. And you never did hear any arguments between them or any
scolding?
Mrs. SAWYER. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he seem to be polite?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes; quite polite. I mean, in fact, that was one of the
things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days,
especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. They don't think very
much of manners, but, in fact, if I happened to come in and he was out
at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something
like that, and I thought it was rather nice, but I never got into any
conversations with him, because I make it a point that, outside of my
own circle of friends, I don't really care to become friendly with
other people, and I think neighbors especially.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether he had any friends from school or
anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? Did you see anyone come
and go?
Mrs. SAWYER. I never did, but then, like I say, I am out from 8 o'clock
in the morning until maybe 5:30, 6, or 7 in the evening, and sometimes
I get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe 9 o'clock
or so.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were you doing at that time? Were you working?
Mrs. SAWYER. Secretary.
Mr. LIEBELER. Secretarial work?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed as a secretary now, too?
Mrs. SAWYER. I do secretarial work or general or anything like that
that I am qualified to do. Well, anything along those lines.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you employed at the present time?
Mrs. SAWYER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember the circumstances under which the Oswalds
left the Exchange Place apartment? Did they tell you where they were
going or anything?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I didn't--I don't recall her saying anything about
where she was going particularly. I know one day my husband told me
that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and
shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when I
came back, well, they were gone.
Mr. LIEBELER. As far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or
particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him
to distinguish him from other boys his age?
Mrs. SAWYER. Really, no; I wouldn't say anything that I can think of,
and, as I say, I never came in contact with him long enough or spoke
to him, and they were just average people. She just seemed like a very
average mother, and I rather imagined in my own mind that she worked
and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would.
About the only thing I remembered about him was the fact that he was
rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know of any friends that Mrs. Oswald had during
that time?
Mrs. SAWYER. No; I don't, and, of course, I could venture to say that
she probably had friends at the stores where she worked.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know any of them?
Mrs. SAWYER. I didn't know any of them, because I made no contacts.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mrs. Sawyer. If
you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that
you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you
can remember anything else about the Oswalds that we haven't covered----
Mrs. SAWYER. No; well, about the only thing I can tell you is that
apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved
into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it
was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and I guess we might have
been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee
to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first
contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and----
Mr. LIEBELER. She seemed to be friendly?
Mrs. SAWYER. She seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person,
but I would say very average, I would think. She seemed to be well
spoken, I would say average education, possibly not college or anything
like that. I was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this
little boy, because, as I said, my picture of him, my mental picture I
did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that
came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice
would be involved in anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever
hear him talking about politics to anybody?
Mrs. SAWYER. No, no; because, as I said, I never met him any more than
just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or
something like that, but I never engaged in any conversations with him
at all. I considered him just a child, and I would hardly think at 14
years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would
have been quite----
Mr. LIEBELER. Precocious?
Mrs. SAWYER. True.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, if you don't have anything else that you can think
of, I have no more questions. We want to thank you very much for coming
over.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome.
Mr. LIEBELER. And for waiting until we got to you, both for myself
personally, and the Commission through me expresses its thanks for the
cooperation that you have given us.
Mrs. SAWYER. Well, you are quite welcome. I am sorry that all I know is
so vague and such a little bit.