The testimony of Edward Voebel was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old
Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La.,
by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Edward Voebel, 4916 Canal Street, New Orleans, La., after first being
duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr. JENNER. You are Edward Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at 4916 Canal Street in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your place of business?
Mr. VOEBEL. At the same place.
Mr. JENNER. They are both at the same place, 4916 Canal Street?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And that's here in New Orleans?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you are associated in business, I believe, with your
mother and father, are you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mother, uncle, and grandmother.
Mr. JENNER. Your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your business?
Mr. VOEBEL. Quality Florist Co.
Mr. JENNER. What is your age, Mr. Voebel?
Mr. VOEBEL. I am 23.
Mr. JENNER. You received a letter from Mr. Rankin, general counsel of
the Warren Commission, did you not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And enclosed with the letter were a copy of Senate
Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of the Commission to
investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And Executive Order No. 11130, of President Lyndon B.
Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take
testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as
this one. You received that also?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you gather from those documents that the
Commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and
circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the
late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I am Albert E. Jenner. Jr., member of the legal staff of
the Commission, and I am here with my associate, Mr. Liebeler, taking
depositions here in New Orleans, which is the birthplace of Lee Harvey
Oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of
their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of
the assassination. Now, it is our understanding that you did have some
contact with him; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to ask you a few questions about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first become acquainted with Lee Harvey
Oswald, and under which circumstances? Just tell me generally how that
came about.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it was at school.
Mr. JENNER. Is that Beauregard Junior High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what year that was?
Mr. VOEBEL. Let's see. I will have to figure that out. That was about
1954 or 1955.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become aware of him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Going to school there. Do you want me to tell you the whole
story?
Mr. JENNER. Well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. I would
like to have a little background in the record before we go into that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. I don't exactly remember when I first saw him,
because I might have seen him going to school and back without knowing
who it was, but I really became acquainted with him when he had this
fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and
tried to patch him up a bit.
Mr. JENNER. Were there individuals involved in this fight that you
remember?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me the circumstances of that, please.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, Lee
had a fight with a couple of boys.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know their names?
Mr. VOEBEL. They were the Neumeyer boys, John and Mike.
Mr. JENNER. John and Mike?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They were classmates?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Well, I think one of them was in the same grade as
Lee. One was older than the other one. The younger one was maybe a
grade or two below Lee, and Lee was in a fight with John, the older one.
Mr. JENNER. Let's see if I have that straight now. Lee was in a fight
with the elder of two Neumeyer brothers; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He was in a fight with John Neumeyer. The fight, I
think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the
street in the direction naturally in which I was going.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a protracted fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. Protracted?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; did it keep going on?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and
people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place,
and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run
them off of one block, they would go on to the next.
Mr. JENNER. That was fisticuffs; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they about the same age?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oswald and John?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know; I guess so.
Mr. JENNER. How about size?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think John was a little smaller, a little shorter than
Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what caused the fight?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't. I don't remember that.
Mr. JENNER. But you followed this fight from place to place, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Why, were you curious?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way.
The fight traveled my route home.
Mr. JENNER. All right, what happened as this fight progressed down the
street?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think Oswald was getting the best of John, and the
little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was
two against one, so with that Oswald just seemed to give one good punch
to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding.
Mr. JENNER. Whose mouth?
Mr. VOEBEL. Mike Neumeyer.
Mr. JENNER. The little boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir. Mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that
happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against Oswald for
some reason, which I didn't understand, because it was two against
one, and Oswald had a right to defend himself. In a way, I felt that
this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on I found out that
this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his
lip. Oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the
boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like Oswald hit
him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody
off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against Lee at that
time because he had punched little Mike in the mouth and made his mouth
bleed. I don't remember anything that happened after that, but I think
I just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day
or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening,
and Oswald, I think, was a little in front of me and I was a couple
of paces behind him, and I was talking with some other people, and I
didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick.
Some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous
football player--punched Lee right square in the mouth, and without him
really knowing or seeing really who did it. I don't know who he was,
and he ran off. That's when we ran after Lee to see if we could help
him.
Mr. JENNER. He just swung one lick and ran?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's what they call passing the post. He passed the
post on him.
Mr. JENNER. Passed the post, what's that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's when somebody walks up to you and punches you.
That's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on
Lee at that time.
Mr. JENNER. You think that might have happened because of the squabble
he had with the two Neumeyer boys a day or two before?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think that was what brought it all about. I think
this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the Neumeyer boys,
so that's when I felt sympathy toward Lee for something like this
happening, and a couple of other boys and I--I don't remember who they
were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him
up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say,
began. We weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, I
would say.
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he
was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was
cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point
on, would you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that. Did you get together occasionally and
share interests, and what were his interests?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember exactly what his interests were. I never
even discussed that, that I know of. I was taking music uptown--I told
the investigator that I was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but
actually I was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but I
did play both of them, but at that time I was taking piano lessons, and
sometimes I would stop off at Lee's, and we would play darts and pool.
Lee's the one who taught me to play pool. In fact, he invited me to
come and play pool with him. He lived over the top of the pool hall.
Mr. JENNER. And did you accept his invitation?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's when we played darts.
Mr. JENNER. You played darts and you shot pool also; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Where was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. On Exchange Alley.
Mr. JENNER. Exchange Alley?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; or Exchange Place, whatever you call it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you find him adept in playing pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, I had never played before and he showed me the
fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games I started beating
him, and he would say, "Beginner's luck," so I don't think he was that
good, because I am really not that good at playing pool. I mean, I
don't think he was a great pool player.
Mr. JENNER. But he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to
the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he liked it.
Mr. JENNER. He liked to play pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he seemed to like it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I met her one time, and for some reason I had a
picture in my mind which was different from when I saw her in the
paper after all of this happened. I didn't recognize her. She was a
lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as I recall it, when I met
her. Of course, this was about 8 years ago, but I can remember she had
a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now,
maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind
as I recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Do you smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee smoke?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't, really.
Mr. JENNER. Do you drink occasionally?
Mr. VOEBEL. If it's in a party, or to be sociable I do, but I am not a
drinker.
Mr. JENNER. How about Lee, was he a drinker?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen
or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot
of people our age at that time. Kids did it, but I had no reason for
drinking at the time, because I mean, I was just 14 years old, and I
think the legal age here is 18, so that didn't actually enter my mind.
There was another thing why I sort of formed a friendship with Lee, and
that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke,
which I thought was a bum type nature, and Lee wasn't one of those, so
he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the
others.
Mr. JENNER. All right; those are the things I am interested in, what
you think of Lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time
you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not.
That's my problem.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. I'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a
man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was 14
or 15 years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you
were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was.
People change, of course.
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. Now, I want to make one thing clear. I liked Lee.
I felt that we had a lot in common at that time. Now, if I met Lee
Oswald, say a year ago, I am not saying that I would still like him,
but the things I remember about Lee when we were going to school
together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and I think
in a way I understood him better than most of the other kids. He had
the sort of personality that I could like. He was the type of boy that
I could like, and if he had not changed at all, I probably still would
have the same feeling for Lee Oswald, at least more so than for the
Neumeyer brothers. Of course, as you say, people do change, and I don't
know how I would have felt about Lee as we both grew older. I lost
contact with Lee years ago.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe the Neumeyer brothers as roustabouts?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. At least,
that was my impression of them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's what I want, your impression. Would you
say there were other boys of the type of the Neumeyer brothers at
Beauregard School while you were attending there?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; I would say most of them seemed to be
troublemakers. In fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at
that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a
fight sooner or later. You take me, I am not a fighter, but I had to
fight at that school.
Mr. JENNER. You did?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of
characters that were going to that school at that time.
Mr. JENNER. So this particular incident, when Lee had this fight, that
in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or
inclined to get into fights; is that right? Your impression was just
the opposite of that; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, no; I will say this; I would back down from a fight
a lot quicker that Lee would. Now, he wouldn't start any fights, but
if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he
ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going
to take anything from anybody. I mean, people could call me names and I
might just brush that off, but not Lee. You couldn't do that with Lee.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say he was unusually quick to take offense?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I didn't know him to be that way. He could have been,
now, but I wouldn't go that strong with it. All I'm saying is that if
you picked on Lee, you had a fight on your hands. He wouldn't go out of
his way to avoid it.
Mr. JENNER. All I'm asking you is what your impression was, and I don't
want you to speculate as to what might have been. Do you think he was
a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to
speak?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, like I said, he didn't take anything from anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Was this a coeducational school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. High school or junior high?
Mr. VOEBEL. Junior high school, but it just had been changed. It was a
grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when
it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters.
As time went on, it might have slacked off; I don't know how it is now,
but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very
often, I think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang
wars and things like that.
Mr. JENNER. You still live close to the school?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and I know they have gang wars in this cemetery near
there, and there was this guy that I believe was pushing narcotics,
pushing dope. I tried working with the police department for a long
time to get this guy out there. I believe he was pushing dope, but it
was hard to pin him down. I worked almost 2 months with the narcotics
people, but he was too slick for us. He just disappeared. He was there
for about a year, and then he disappeared.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the Warren Easton School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you go to Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Warren Easton is a senior high school; right?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is it somewhere close to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, about 6 or 8 blocks away, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. Is it normal for students going to Beauregard Junior High
School to then enroll in Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's normally right.
Mr. JENNER. That's the regular progression?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Did you know that Lee attended Warren Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; to tell the truth, I lost complete contact with him
after I left Beauregard. I might have seen him once or twice during
that summer.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade,
or what?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember. Let's see--no; I think we were in the
same grade, I think we were.
Mr. JENNER. When you left Beauregard, where did you go to high school?
Mr. VOEBEL. I went to Fortier.
Mr. JENNER. Any reason?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, Fortier has an ROTC system.
Mr. JENNER. That's why you went over there?
Mr. VOEBEL. To get in the ROTC; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a service man?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what branch?
Mr. VOEBEL. Army.
Mr. JENNER. Did some other boys pal around with you and Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember. You see, the only relationship we
had after this fight I told you about, was when I would be downtown and
stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but I don't remember
participating in any events with Lee at school. For example, I don't
remember having played ball or anything with Lee, so probably our gym
periods were different.
I used to go straight home after school, and I think he did too, so
there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. I had a
lot of friends and many acquaintances, but I don't think Lee did.
Mr. JENNER. You don't think Lee did?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule
accorded him when he first turned up at Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think there was something. Always when someone
comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or
clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. It's just
like the old story they tell about the Irish Channel, about how anybody
new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the
community before they accepted him.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me some more about the Irish Channel, and how that
compares to the Beauregard situation when you were attending there.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, it may be different now, but I know in my day when
you went to Beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something,
you had to prove yourself. You had to fight somebody.
Now, the Irish Channel is a part of town around Magazine Street, oh,
maybe the 3000 block, generally around Magazine and Louisiana Avenue,
I think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time
a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face
something like that. The whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he
joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was
the same at Beauregard. Of course, it was all, you know, children and
adolescent things.
Mr. JENNER. And it was your impression that Lee had that social force,
whatever it was; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; he met it head on.
Mr. JENNER. He was inclined to meet it head on and not back up?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. He wouldn't take anything. I used to try to avoid
it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. I
think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. They
thought I was just a fat kid, and I wouldn't do anything, and I used
to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always
be in gangs. Now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they
would hang around in bunches.
In fact, I had an incident like that happen to me over at that school
where this boy marked me out. He said he didn't like the way I looked,
so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and
finally he got it. I beat the dickens out of him, and it was after
school, almost the same way this happened to Lee.
Word got around at the school what I had done, and a whole gang of
people met me after school one day, but I was lucky enough to talk
myself out of it. Now, when they passed the post on Lee, he was
inclined to fight back, but I had sense enough to know that you can't
fight a whole gang, so I talked myself out of it. This gang came over
to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using
all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle
ran them off, and after that I didn't have any more trouble. You just
had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't attack you any more?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say that the course of conduct of Lee Oswald was
normal, having in mind the problems he was facing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, except that he didn't make friends.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he was not inclined to make friends.
Mr. JENNER. But you don't know why he was so disinclined?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends.
It was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally.
He was just living in his own world, let's say.
Mr. JENNER. But you did have some measure of common interest that you
told me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. I guess you are trying to get at the gun. Is that what you
have in mind?
Mr. JENNER. Well, I am not going to say what I'm trying to get at.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know Lee seemed to have an interest in guns.
Mr. JENNER. And these were regular weapons, not toys?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, military weapons. My uncle started a
collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few
foreign military weapons.
Mr. JENNER. Was that World War I?
Mr. VOEBEL. World War II.
Mr. JENNER. Your uncle?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right, my uncle.
Mr. JENNER. And you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is
that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, I was interested in guns. In fact, we had guns around
the house all the time. We were always interested in them, my uncle and
I, and I learned to shoot a pistol when I was about, oh, 7 years old,
you see.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, no; I don't think I even told Lee about how I felt
about that. I don't think Lee was interested in weapons for the same
reason I was. I mean, I like weapons because I like mechanics. I like
anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and I've always
liked reading about the history of different guns, and I have often
thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had
this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones
they did have. I don't think Lee was interested in the history of any
weapons. For example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he
wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting
them or anything.
I also like sport cars. You've heard of people who like mechanics and
cars. I wanted them for a purpose, whereas Lee would be inclined to
want something just to have it, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have an interest in automobiles at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You couldn't interest him in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was interested in a lot of things. I had taken music,
and I liked automobiles, and I collected weapons, just a lot of things,
and Lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't
seem to run that way.
Mr. JENNER. Was he interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; he wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I never had seen him drive at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss the subject with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I can remember.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he could drive or
couldn't drive an automobile?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think he could drive. The only thing I think he was
interested in besides reading, that I could gather, was one day he went
fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in City Park. They
were no bigger than that.
Mr. JENNER. Almost minnows?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right, and I think he liked to fish.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk about fishing?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, not as fishermen do, but I could tell that he enjoyed
fishing, at least that day. I do know that he did go fishing, although
I don't know how often, but I know he bought a whole rig and went
fishing that day.
Mr. JENNER. What did you observe as to his financial circumstances?
Mr. VOEBEL. Financial circumstances?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his
finances.
Mr. VOEBEL. Poor.
Mr. JENNER. Poor?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That made no difference to you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not a bit. That's another thing about me. It doesn't matter
whether a friend of mine has money or not. Some of my best friends are
very poor, and I also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me.
It's just the individual person. I don't belong to any cliques. I don't
fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some
class reason or anything like that. I like people because of maybe an
interest that is similar to mine, someone that I have a more or less
common understanding with on different subjects that I am interested
in. I don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like
that, because I don't have the time.
Mr. JENNER. Are you married?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you get out of the service?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two years ago. I just served 6 months.
Mr. JENNER. That's a sort of special program?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; 6 months in the Reserves.
Mr. JENNER. Then you have to serve 2 weeks each year; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. This year we are going to meet at the Brooklyn Army
Terminal and also take in the World's Fair?
Mr. JENNER. Tell me more about your association with Oswald. You say
you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the
apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot
pool?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; nothing like that. We would go down and play two or
three games, and then I had to go because it would be getting late
in the day. You see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a
couple of games I would leave and go on home. We didn't hang around at
all. For one thing, I had so many things to do. I had my music lessons
and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, I had to help them
out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever own a weapon?
Mr. VOEBEL. A real one?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you emphasized that word "real." Is there something
there that you want to tell me about?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he did own a plastic model of a .45.
Mr. JENNER. A plastic model?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; and he showed that to me. I guess you want to know now
about his plan for this robbery. Actually I wasn't too much impressed
with the whole idea at first, because I had heard so much talk about
stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother
me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and
everything that he needed for a burglary, you see.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, we were over at Easton.
Mr. JENNER. Easton High School?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; we were over there for some program that they were
putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high
school.
Mr. JENNER. Was that right at the time you were graduating from
Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And he was preparing to graduate at the same time from
Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so.
Mr. JENNER. Wasn't there a period when he dropped out of Beauregard
altogether?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. Or was that at Easton?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't remember.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. You don't remember him being out of school entirely for
about a year?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; that might have been over at Easton. It could have been
over there, but I don't remember that at all.
Mr. JENNER. All right, go on with your story.
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we
were listening to the band and I think this was when he revealed the
plan for stealing this pistol from a place on Rampart Street.
Mr. JENNER. Did he seek to enlist you in that plan?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; not really, he just told me about it. He had observed
a pistol in this window, this show window, on Rampart Street, and his
plan was to steal it.
Mr. JENNER. It wasn't one of these collector's items?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. I can't remember the pistol, to tell
you the truth, but I don't think it was a collector's piece. It was
just a weapon. It might have been a Smith & Wesson. I think it was an
automatic, but I don't remember. I really didn't pay too much attention
to it.
Mr. JENNER. You actually saw the pistol in the window?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. To get back to my story, it was maybe the following
week that I was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and
a box with this plastic pistol in it, and I think he had a plan as to
how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol.
Mr. JENNER. You mean in the Rampart Street store?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. Now, I don't remember if he was planning to use this
plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the
glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. I don't think he
was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told
me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the
window and everything, and I didn't know what to tell him, so he said,
"Why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind
it is, and what you think of my plan?" So I said all right, and so we
walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the
window, and like I said, I don't remember what kind it was.
He said, "Well, what do you think?" and I didn't know what to tell him.
I didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then I happened to notice
this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar
alarms, and I got to working on that idea in the hope that I could talk
him out of trying it, and I told him, I said, "Well, I don't think
that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that
tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and I don't think he believed
me, but I told him, "Let's go in the store and look at it from the
inside," and so I convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try
it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he
finally gave up the idea. There had been some jewel robberies on Canal
Street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window,
such as Lee planned to do. I remember reading about that, but anyway,
he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was
the end of that.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, it was just a real cheap one.
Mr. JENNER. This was a plate glass window, though, you say?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. It never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass
window with a glass cutter?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not at that time; no. I didn't know anything about the
cutting of glass anyway. I just thought he could do it, you know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you hear any more about that event afterwards?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I think it just played out. I don't think he really
wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. I think he was
really looking for a way out. It was just some fantastic thing he got
in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. I mean, it
seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point
where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through
with it, and I never heard anymore about it after that. Now that I look
back on it, I think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if
he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you
know, but I am just speculating on that, of course.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any discussions with Lee about politics?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. I mean the politics in the pure sense.
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that. We were too young, I guess, to
be interested too much in politics at that time. I have read things
about Lee having developed ideas as to Marxism and communism way back
when he was a child, but I believe that's a lot of baloney.
Mr. JENNER. You and he never discussed anything like that, then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I am sure he had no interest in those things at
that time, at least that I know of. Of course, we took courses like
political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot
of reading and studying along that line at that time, but I don't even
know that. I know we never discussed anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. Now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the
service, I believe; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't know. He never did say. I know he did have
two brothers, but I didn't know what they were doing.
Mr. JENNER. They weren't around for any of this playing darts or
playing pool, or anything else that you and Lee participated in, were
they?
Mr. VOEBEL. No, I never saw them. I never met them.
Mr. JENNER. Did you form an opinion as to the relationship between Lee
and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I know it wasn't the type of relationship that you
usually see between a mother and her children. I'm just giving you my
opinion on that, now. I know that they weren't very close, as far as
Lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and I think
she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like
Lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time.
I think Lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was
something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her
children, as far as I am concerned, but with the type man Lee was, I
guess a lot of that is understandable. You just couldn't get through to
him. He just wasn't communicative. He just didn't talk too much about
anything.
Mr. JENNER. Was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? I mean,
did he cut her off short in any way?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I noticed the normal resentment going on in him at
that time, but I was the same way, and I remember seeing that in other
kids at that time. Your mother might be telling you things that are
normally good for you, but I think every child resents discipline to
a certain extent. I know I did at that time, but as to Lee and his
mother, I don't think there was anything violent between them, if you
know what I mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a
mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, that's just an expression that was used at that time.
Mr. JENNER. Was it used with respect to Lee and his mother?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; never. He was no mamma's boy.
Mr. JENNER. Well, did you have the impression that his mother was often
indulgent toward him?
Mr. VOEBEL. In one way; yes.
Mr. JENNER. In which way was that?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she
would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. Even
if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. Of course,
if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for
him, I don't know about that; I don't have any recollection of anything
like that, but I know she did everything she could for Lee, and maybe
he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but
that's just the way he was.
Mr. JENNER. What sort of impression did you have of Lee's attitude as
to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his
father died so young, and he had, I mean Lee, had received a bad deal
in life. What was his attitude about that, if any?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I think he was impressed with the fact that his
father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his
father. I think that left a mark on him, but I don't think that's
unusual in itself. I think there were times when you could see he felt
bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked
about that. Lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at Beauregard
together.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever come over to your house?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't think so; no; he never did. Now, I can't say for
sure, but I don't think he did.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever have any common athletic interest?
Mr. VOEBEL. Not that I know of.
Mr. JENNER. Were you active in sports?
Mr. VOEBEL. Just in intramurals.
Mr. JENNER. Did he play any intramurals?
Mr. VOEBEL. I don't know. I wasn't in the same gym class with him, so
I can't say for certain on that. I don't know. He must have. I think
everybody had to play some intramural sports.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling
that there were things that should have been accorded him by way
of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been
deprived because his father had predeceased him?
Mr. VOEBEL. Did he have a feeling of that at that time?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. VOEBEL. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those
thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than
it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly
good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. We would play darts and
play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you
that impression?
Mr. VOEBEL. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I
am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination
occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we
were in Beauregard together.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the
impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as
compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this
man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.
Mr. VOEBEL. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I
think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course,
at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind
trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out
looking for something like that unless you have a reason.
Mr. JENNER. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that
Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you
not?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around
and associating with Lee Oswald?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. Did you put any credence in that?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one
that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one
to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be
reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal
things that kids read.
Mr. JENNER. Were you a voracious reader in those days?
Mr. VOEBEL. No.
Mr. JENNER. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the
time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great
reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I
guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me,
even music when I first started with it.
Mr. JENNER. Are you still interested in music?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I still play music.
Mr. JENNER. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with
Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity
of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?
Mr. VOEBEL. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand
then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to
mix with people; that's all.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that
has remained in your mind all these years?
Mr. VOEBEL. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted
to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you
see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that
maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people.
Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't
tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I
knew how he didn't like to mix with people.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this
horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of
Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and
behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since
his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him;
is that right?
Mr. JENNER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects,
and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of
a gang at school, or anything like that?
Mr. VOEBEL. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. While you were going to Beauregard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look
for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few
friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that
seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more
or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his
studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that
right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he was just an average student.
Mr. JENNER. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do
you know?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his
attendance was pretty good.
Mr. JENNER. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I was not much on the Marines.
Mr. JENNER. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with
Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; we didn't discuss that.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever talk about his brothers?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but
there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his
brothers--I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I
have no impression of that whatsoever.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received
his just dues in the world up to that point?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't
really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression.
That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.
Mr. JENNER. But did you have such an impression at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I
said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.
Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing
because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression
at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I
think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter
toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my
opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were
going to Beauregard, to the same school.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your
opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young,
and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember that statement?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it?
Mr. VOEBEL. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later.
Mr. JENNER. And you don't think you had those impressions then?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later.
Mr. JENNER. What was that embitterment directed toward?
Mr. VOEBEL. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority.
Mr. JENNER. You noticed that at that time, did you?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do,
or made to do something.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think they have two.
Mr. JENNER. Two?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were there two here at that time?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking
about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he
attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently
bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember,
in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.
Mr. JENNER. He just attended two meetings of the CAP?
Mr. VOEBEL. Two or three meetings, I would say.
Mr. JENNER. And that's all he attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think.
Mr. JENNER. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when
Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that
I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but
he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join
the unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to
be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it
was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he
was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't
attend any more meetings.
Mr. JENNER. You thought that was strange?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my
opinion now, I guess--not then, but I think now maybe he liked the
uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those
classes that we had.
Mr. JENNER. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit?
Mr. VOEBEL. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that
Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just
didn't show up any more.
Mr. JENNER. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require
some study?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; they did.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of
his earlier life?
Mr. VOEBEL. His "history"?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; his background--anything about his family before he
ever met you?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but
he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or
anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here
from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I
don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he
wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at
that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all
this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things
like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and
things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to
anyone in your presence, that you recall?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times,
just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he
did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would
impress me so that I would remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a
week, or how often?
Mr. VOEBEL. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have
actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe
attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a
sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the
whole thing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on the
weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but
maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Was this CAP unit coeducational?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too,
isn't that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out
there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.
Mr. JENNER. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these
classes?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They
might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest
me.
Mr. JENNER. Did they interest Lee?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls.
Mr. JENNER. He was not?
Mr. VOEBEL. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't
show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind?
Mr. VOEBEL. None whatever.
Mr. JENNER. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in
that respect?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't
pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?
Mr. VOEBEL. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else.
I think that was probably it.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that you can think of from your
acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you
could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what
I have asked you?
Mr. VOEBEL. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of
reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege
and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on
to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be
transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know
when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in
that regard?
Mr. VOEBEL. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told
you what I know about it.
Mr. JENNER. You prefer to waive that then?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you for coming in.