Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a lithography company?
Mr. KLAUSE. Well, it is a negative service. In other words, what
they do is supply the printers with blanks, and ink, and ink knives,
different fountain solutions, things like that, for the press, and also
they have their own cameras. They have probably two $15,000 or $20,000
cameras there. And, of course, they can produce work from their cameras
I cannot touch on my little camera, or our camera at the shop.
Mr. JENNER. So you took the two magazine pictures of President Kennedy
to Monk Bros.?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of having Monk Bros. make negatives, film
negatives of them?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Which in turn were to be employed to do what?
Mr. KLAUSE. To be employed to be run on this job. I mean it was part of
this piece right here.
Mr. JENNER. And do you recall what the charge was by Monk Bros. for
that service?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; I think it was around three and a half, four and a
half, something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Did you pay in cash?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you paid in cash because you did not want it charged to
Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; I originally had a charge account at Monk Bros.
But I still owe a little on my bill down there; and at the time I just
rather had paid for it. Not knowing what the job was then anyway--I
mean when I go down there and buy supplies for myself, since--I owe the
man money, I try whatever I can to pay for, because I have got a pretty
nice little bill down there now, and I do not want to run it up any
higher.
Mr. JENNER. When you received the negatives, then what did you do with
the negatives?
Mr. KLAUSE. Well, the bottom part was shot, or picture was made with
the camera at our shop; and then I stripped the negative in. In other
words, I put the two top pieces, the picture and the bottom part
together. And then made a plate on it.
Mr. JENNER. Made a plate from those negatives?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In turn to be employed in printing the handbill?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When you received those negatives, did you again
communicate with Mr. Surrey?
Mr. KLAUSE. I do not believe I understand what you mean, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. After you obtained usable negatives from Monk Bros., did
you advise Mr. Surrey that you now had obtained those usable negatives
and would be able to proceed with the job?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had Mr. Surrey advised you as to how many he wished of
these handbills?
Mr. KLAUSE. Approximately--he said approximately 6,000, 7,000.
Mr. JENNER. You made a plate from which the front and profile of
President Kennedy as appears on Exhibit No. 996 was made?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there is copy below the profile and front view, as you
will notice on the exhibit before you. From what source did you receive
that copy?
Mr. KLAUSE. That copy came, sir; as was--just approximately about the
way it is here. I do not know whether it was typed on--I do not know
that much about a Varitypewriter. Or it might have been letterpress.
Somebody might have set it up letterpress or Linotype, and ran a press
proof; I do not know.
Mr. JENNER. From whom did you receive that press-proof copy?
Mr. KLAUSE. I received all the copy from Mr. Surrey.
Mr. JENNER. And the copy, then, as you received it from Mr. Surrey,
which is in turn reflected on Commission Exhibit No. 996, was in the
form at that time, when you received it from Mr. Surrey, that it now
appears in on Commission Exhibit No. 996?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How did you reproduce it onto the handbill?
Mr. KLAUSE. Well, this was run offset, like I said, all of it was put
on film. Then it was burnt into what we call a metal plate, which we
expose to light. It is a light-sensitive plate, and any time light hits
it, where you have clear spots on your film, that image of the light
will burn into your plate. When you process the plate out, you come up
with a developer, which brings the image out. Then once you put that
plate on the press, that image will pick up type.
Mr. JENNER. When did Mr. Surrey bring you that copy with respect to the
time when he brought the two slick magazine reproductions of President
Kennedy's profile and front views?
Mr. KLAUSE. I believe it was all at the same time. This was--the
pictures were the only thing I even took out of the envelope at one
time. The rest of it I did not even bother to look at.
Mr. JENNER. Who, if anybody, assisted you in printing up the handbills?
Mr. KLAUSE. Nobody.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Klause did not help you?
Mr. KLAUSE. She was in front of the shop. In fact, I do not even think
she ever came back.
Mr. JENNER. When you say shop are you talking now of your own shop in
your home or the shop at Lettercraft?
Mr. KLAUSE. Lettercraft.
Mr. JENNER. So the handbills were actually printed by you in the
Lettercraft Printing Co. shop?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; after hours.
Mr. JENNER. After you had--how many did you print, if you recall?
Mr. KLAUSE. I would say, Mr. Jenner, approximately 5,000--5,200, 5,300.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do with them after you printed them?
Mr. KLAUSE. I put them in a box. In fact, I did not even wrap them. I
just stuck them in a box. And I contacted Mr. Surrey the next day.
Mr. JENNER. And now, give us your recollection as to when you made
contact with Mr. Surrey--with particular reference to November 22, 1963.
Mr. KLAUSE. I would say, sir; it was approximately 2 or 2-1/2 weeks
before Mr. Kennedy was in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the early part of November 1963?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; as close as I can remember right now.
Mr. JENNER. Did you deliver the 5,000 plus handbills personally to Mr.
Surrey?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And where did that delivery take place?
Mr. KLAUSE. Now, that I do remember. That was about 5 blocks
approximately from the shop. It was--from Lettercraft. It was a little
cafe there which we call the Waffle Shop. It is the Pal's Waffle Shop.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make--I take it then you made arrangements with Mr.
Surrey to meet him at Pal's Waffle Shop, rather than he come to the
Lettercraft Printing Co.
Mr. KLAUSE. I called him and told him that they were ready, and he
said, "Where can I meet you?" and I was getting ready to go to lunch at
the time anyway. I believe it was lunch or coffee. I said, "I'm getting
ready to go out for coffee. I am going to go up about 5 blocks up the
street to the Waffle Shop." He said, "I'll meet you there, then."
Mr. JENNER. Did Mrs. Klause accompany you?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; she was at work.
Mr. JENNER. Anybody accompany you?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You met Mr. Surrey at the Pal's Waffle Shop?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You delivered him all of the handbills you had printed up?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What color were those?
Mr. KLAUSE. The handbills were run on what we call assorted dodger
stock--green and orange and blue and yellow. It is a cheap colored
newspaper print is what it is.
Mr. JENNER. From where did you obtain the assorted dodger stock?
Mr. KLAUSE. Olmstead Kirk Paper Co.
Mr. JENNER. Did you make it as an individual purchase or was that a
purchase on behalf of the Lettercraft Printing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No; that was my own purchase.
Mr. JENNER. You purchased that and paid for it in cash?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were you paid for this work you did for Mr. Surrey?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what did he pay you?
Mr. KLAUSE. I think it was $40, Mr. Jenner. In fact, I am almost
positive.
Mr. JENNER. Was it in cash?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When next did you see Mr. Surrey after you had delivered
the handbills to him?
Mr. KLAUSE. I would say approximately 2 or 3 weeks after Mr. Kennedy
was assassinated in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. So I take it then you had no contact with Mr. Surrey of any
kind or character from the day you delivered the 5,000 plus handbills
to him in Pal's Waffle Shop until some 2 weeks after President
Kennedy's assassination on November 22, 1963.
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr. JENNER. That whole time span was a month to 5 weeks?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; and then at that time I called Mr. Surrey myself
personally.
Mr. JENNER. Why?
Mr. KLAUSE. Like I said, I have two or three accounts, and I had one
job that I could not run, it was a big job. A lot of printers will work
with other printers in jobbing out work. I took this job and jobbed it
out--Mr. Surrey jobbed it out to Johnson, and let Johnson run it. And I
in turn paid Bob for the job, when the people paid me, and I delivered
the job, and I made a commission off of it.
Mr. JENNER. On that occasion when you saw Mr. Surrey, did you have a
conversation--did you have any conversation with him with respect to
the dodger or handbill, Commission Exhibit No. 996?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; I imagine there was. I cannot exactly say what
it is now. But I imagine there was something said--because I was quite
upset about it at the time.
Mr. JENNER. The FBI interviewed you about this incident, did they not?
Mr. KLAUSE. The Secret Service did; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And when you were first interviewed, you did not disclose
to the Secret Service the facts with respect to Mr. Surrey delivering
this material to you and your having printed it for him, delivered it
to him, and he paying you?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; nothing at all.
Mr. JENNER. What led you to do that, Mr. Klause?
Mr. KLAUSE. Well, I started thinking about it, and then the folks were
getting real upset about it, because I had put them in a jam, which it
was my own fault.
Mr. JENNER. When you say folks, you mean your mother and stepfather?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; and I mean I like to help friends as much as I
can, and be good to people as much as I can. But people in my family
are going to come closer than my friends are.
Mr. JENNER. You finally decided to reveal the full facts respecting
this handbill?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you did so to the Secret Service?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Mr. Surrey approach you at any time to suggest to you
that you should not reveal the source of this handbill?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; I talked to him--I believe it was probably a
couple of days after the Secret Service was out. And I told him those
people were wanting to know things--I mean doing their job, that they
wanted to find something out.
I said this is strictly out of my territory--I did not know what I was
supposed to do. And he said, well, I could either get myself a lawyer
or just not say anything at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever tell him you made up your mind you were going
to tell the full facts about this matter?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; not really. I think in so many words he might have
understood that I was.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever make a remark to you, "Well, that is the way
the ball bounces."
Mr. KLAUSE. It sounds like--it seems to ring a bell, but I cannot place
it.
Mr. JENNER. Was that not in fact said by him in connection with your
telling him that you had reached the conclusion that you had to tell
the full facts about this matter?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr. KLAUSE. The ball bounces--yes, sir--that rings a bell now.
Mr. JENNER. Up to November 22, 1963, had you ever heard the name Lee
Harvey Oswald?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever seen anybody up to that day who purported to
be or whom you were advised was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Garner Exhibit No. 1. Did you ever see that man
prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir. The only time I seen this man was on television
and in the paper.
Mr. JENNER. You mean on or after November 22, 1963?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 520, and direct your
attention to the center figure appearing on that photograph. Did you
ever see that man prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have a conversation with Mr. Surrey as to the
purpose for which the handbill was to be put?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When you read this copy, did that not alarm you or upset
you? It is rather provocative, is it not, and it has a title "Wanted
for Treason."
Mr. KLAUSE. Actually, Mr. Jenner, I did not even pay any attention to
the copy at all. It was late at night at the time I ran it. I did not
pay any attention to it at all--which I should have done, I admit now.
But I did not.
Mr. JENNER. You were running it at night because you were doing this on
the side?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You do have some printing equipment in your own apartment
or home?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir. Not at my house; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You used the equipment of the Lettercraft Printing Co., did
you?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you did this at night because you were doing it on the
side with the Lettercraft Printing Co. equipment?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you advise your mother or your stepfather you were
doing this?
Mr. KLAUSE. Now, let me explain this to you. When they opened the
shop up I started to work for approximately $35 a week, and what few
accounts I had, I turned over to the shop, and there was a couple of
little accounts, like friends of mine that I ran around with, rode
motorcycles with and things like that, that I kept for myself. And I
mean that was my spending money. And they made the understanding--we
made the understanding, when the shop was opened, that whatever little
jobs like that that I had, I could do on the side at night--as long as
it did not interfere with work during the day.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell your mother or stepfather that you had done
this work?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you tell them eventually?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. They found out about it eventually?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You kept the money, did you?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know General Edwin A. Walker, resigned?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of him?
Mr. KLAUSE. I have heard of him.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any contact with him?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware that Robert A. Surrey was associated with
General Edwin A. Walker at the time you made up these handbills?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any acquaintance with Robert A. Surrey other
than as a fellow employee at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And this incident about which you have testified?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there? Did Surrey ever tell you
what he intended to do with these throwaways, or posters, or make any
remarks about them at all?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir. He just asked me to do the job--said he had a
customer that wanted it done. And that is all that was ever said about
it.
Senator COOPER. He did not tell you what the customer wanted to do with
them?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But at the very outset he asked you to do this on the side?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, I think I am going to have to leave now.
I have no further questions.
(At this point, Senator Cooper left the hearing room.)
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of the American Eagle Publishing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir. It takes a minute to ring a bell, but it rings a
bell.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever do any work for the American Eagle Publishing
Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is a company with which Mr. Surrey is associated?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; I believe so. That is why I heard that mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. How did you become acquainted with that fact? And when?
Mr. KLAUSE. I believe there was a discussion one day that sometimes on
jobs--I think this was done, we talked about this at Johnson at the
time.
Mr. JENNER. At the time you were employed at Johnson?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir. That jobs would come in that he would send
through--might not be too much commission in it or something, or might
not be a big job, where he would job through this place, which in turn
then would job back through Johnson. Then he would get probably a
markup plus a commission. How it is worked, I do not know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of the fact that Mr. Surrey and General
Walker were the two partners in American Eagle Publishing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But you knew he had some connection with the company--Mr.
Surrey?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir. Like I said, he had mentioned it.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Surrey had mentioned it to you. Did he tell you he was
an officer of that company?
Mr. KLAUSE. Well, as far as I knew, he was sole owner.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. KLAUSE. It is what I thought was an assumed name, like myself. I
do not know how the laws are here, but in Texas when you open up in
business, you have got to file an assumed name certificate--if it is
under an assumed name or your name or whatever the name is, you have to
file that business.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an assumed name certificate for your private
business?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is it?
Mr. KLAUSE. Klause Printing.
Mr. JENNER. Were you not aware of the fact that Mr. Surrey had some
connection with General Edwin A. Walker?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At no time?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see that tall yellow covered book published
almost like a pamphlet, published by the American Eagle Publishing Co.,
which contained reprints of various news stories of the assassination?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; this might be hard to believe. I saw the book. In
fact, I think I have a copy of it. But to this day, I have yet to crack
the cover on it. I have never even opened it.
Mr. JENNER. What I want to question you about--did you look at the back
of the book, the back cover of the book?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; I noticed the front, and put it in the car. I
carried it in the car for about a week, with a bunch of my scratch pads
I hand out to my customers. And one night I went home to unload the
car, and I unloaded everything out of the car and put it in the house.
And since then I never looked at it.
Mr. JENNER. You never noticed that Surrey appears on the backside of
the back cover as the president of the American Eagle Publishing Co.
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Have you ever heard of the Carousel Club in Dallas?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; I have heard of it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where it is located?
Mr. KLAUSE. All I can tell you, sir, it is downtown. I have never been
there.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been there?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby prior to the 24th of November
1963?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; I have never seen him and have never met him.
Mr. JENNER. You've never seen him before or since or on that day?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any business with him of any kind or
character?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; as soon as he was put in jail, from what I
understand, the biggest part of his property went up for sale, and the
people--some people that bought some of his property, or bought his
business, called on us to do a job.
Mr. JENNER. This was after the assassination?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; this was after--in fact, I imagine sometime
after his trial. And I called on those people. We printed I think
500 letterheads and 500 envelopes, something like that, plus 2,000
circulars about open from 7 until 2 in the morning, and then the dance
band who was there. In fact, they still owe the bill at the shop. In
fact from what I understand, that place is closed up again now.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lettercraft Printing Co. ever do any work for Jack
Ruby, to your knowledge?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did Johnson Printing Co. ever do any work for Jack Ruby, to
your knowledge?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; not to my knowledge. And I can assure you that
Lettercraft didn't, because if it had, it would have crossed my desk.
Mr. JENNER. Were you generally aware of the jobs that went through
Johnson Printing?
Mr. KLAUSE. That came to my press, yes sir. Now, Johnson--I don't know
whether you know it--it is a pretty good sized shop. It is one of the
biggest in Dallas. In fact, you could put my whole shop in just one
room over there.
Mr. JENNER. When you talk about your shop you are talking about
Lettercraft?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; now, on the press that I was working on, nothing
ever came in; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think that will be all. May I look at my notes, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. DULLES. Have you told us in detail all your conversations with Mr.
Surrey, from the time that this particular job started until it was
concluded?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Did he tell you at all what his purpose was?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; the only thing I mentioned--he said he had a
customer that wanted it.
Mr. JENNER. He did not identify the customer?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. But he indicated he was doing this for a customer?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Do you recall whether at the time Mr. Surrey first spoke
with you about this job, it was publicly known that President Kennedy
was to visit Dallas?
Mr. KLAUSE. It might have been; but not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. DULLES. You did not know at that time that President Kennedy was
going to visit Dallas?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And I think you have testified that your first contact with
Mr. Surrey about this was some 3 weeks before the visit?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Around the first of November that would be?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; now, it might have came out in the paper that
Mr. Kennedy was coming to Dallas, but we don't take the paper. And
usually by the time we get home and feed the kids, we don't have time
to read the paper anyway. We might watch the late movie on television.
We don't keep up with the news, which we should, but we don't. And
that is probably the way it got in without me knowing it. But I had no
knowledge at all.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Klause works, does she?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you both get home about the same time do you?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir--the biggest part of the time we do.
Mr. JENNER. How many children do you have?
Mr. KLAUSE. We have three.
Mr. JENNER. I exhibit to you another handbill which we will mark as
Commission Exhibit No. 1053.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 1053 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. For the purpose of the record, this is entitled "Wanted for
Murder," and it had a front view and profile of Mr. Khrushchev. It is
signed "Minutemen" in printing, with quotations.
Have you ever seen that document before or one like it?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you see any form of type there that is the kind of type
that is reproduced in Lettercraft Printing?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Does that appear to be any type font or printing with which
you became familiar at Johnson Printing Co.?
Mr. KLAUSE. No, sir; actually from a printer's viewpoint--just looking
at it from this angle here--that could be done off of a typewriter.
That looks more like a typewriter than it does off a Linotype machine.
Mr. JENNER. And after its having been typed, then reproduced in the
fashion in which Commission Exhibit No. 996 was reproduced?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The mechanical processes you have described. You called it
a blanket?
Mr. KLAUSE. Plate.
Mr. JENNER. Make up a plate of the whole sheet--you photograph the
sheet, then make a plate, and reproduce from the plate?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir.
Now why I say it doesn't look like Linotype--in Linotype most of your
columns or your paragraphs are butted up straight. In other words, you
got straight edges on both sides. Whereas on a typewriter you cannot
flush. It takes somebody exceptionally skilled with a typewriter to
flush the corners. These edges here are not flush.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about the right-hand margin?
Mr. KLAUSE. Yes, sir; you see your left hand is flush. Now on a
Linotype those on the right can be flushed.
Mr. JENNER. Now, directing your attention to Commission Exhibit No.
996, are the right-hand margins of that material flushed as you call it?
Mr. KLAUSE. These I would say were pretty close to being flush. It
would be more of a Linotype than this Exhibit No. 1053 here.
Mr. JENNER. That would lead you to believe, then, that the copy on
Commission Exhibit No. 996 was produced in the first instance on a
Linotype machine?